Lefty Courses

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Lefty Courses

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:22 am

It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left). I am seeing more and more lefty holes as course designers are realizing that 1) lefty's play too and 2) It's a challenge to curve the disc against i's natural tendancies with accuracy. So what is the most lefty dominant course in your area. In my area it's Grand Woods park in Lansing hers' why:
Hole 1) Neutral straight 330' open shot
Hole 2) Slight righty advantage. It's straight down the pipe 220' but it finishes slightly left.
Of course that's also where the water is when the level is high so maybe neutral.
Hole 3) This one depends on your range if your down the pipe range is less than 300' I'd
rather be lefty because the right side is less dense and has a better angle to the
basket. Longer than that and I'd rather throw righty (not much difference tho)
Hole 4) This one is lefty all the way. Big spike hyzer over some fairly tall trees. I see righys
turn around and throw lefty on this hole.
Hole 5) Neutral gotta carry some small trees for abou 250' to be safe but that's about it.

Hole 6) The mother of all lefty holes :mrgreen: 310' water on the left and behind the
basket can't go out right and come back because of a line of trees.
Hole 7) Lefty hole 250' straight through some trees if you finish right you're by the basket
if you finish left you have a tree covered hill between you and the basket with a
sharp downhill slope to the Grand River behind the basket. 6 and 7 can be
expensive holes for rightys. :lol:
Hole 8 ) Lefty hole 310' there is straight lane the left side drops down to the pond or
swampy woods depending how far you throw. The right side is lined by tall pine
trees and then slopes down to a small stream. The basket is to the right of the pines
on the slope.
Hole 9) Neutral there are nice hyzer ace runs from both angles
Hole 10) Neutral long and tought but basically straight no advantage to either hand.
Hole 11) Lefty simple short hole but it curves to the right and is easier for lefty.
Hole 12) Neutral long and straight. Rightys have some risk of going in the pond on the left
but not much.
Hole 13) Neutral long and lots of trouble around which direction you want to finish depends
on how far you throw.
Hole 14) Righty hole (kind of) thrown straight off the tee you want to finish right, also good
for a lefty S shot tho.
Hole 15) Lefty short over some low trees and then curves right.
Hole 16) Righty hole (slight advantage) the hardest thing on this hole is to get it through
the trees. If you do tho you want to finish left.
Hole 17) Lefty hole uphill to a basket in the trees the only open lane starts left and then
comes back right to hit a small opening in the trees.
Hole 18) Righty hole throw it low out to the right let it hyzer back once it clears the hill to
park it.

So the final tally is:
7 Lefty holes
4 righty holes
7 neutral
and 3 of those righty hole the advantage is small where all the lefty holes have a big advantage.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:08 am

The most lefty favorable course I remember playing was Brookside in Indy. There are righties who will say several courses are lefty favorable when in reality, the course has a pretty good balance. Righties are so used to having it their way that a balanced course will feel like it's been designed with a lefty bias.

So called lefty holes aren't always easier for lefties and so called righty holes aren't always easier for righties. The fairway bending left or right isn't the only factor. Not only do less experienced designers favor righties in general, but even on their holes that bend right that are supposed to favor lefties, a righty turnover shot can be the more favorable flight path than a lefty hyzer or righty forehand. Mark Ellis can definitely pipe in on this one. In addition, the first trees off the tee are typically staggered in favor of the righties versus lefties.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby curt » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:07 pm

In addition, the first trees off the tee are typically staggered in favor of the righties versus lefties.


What's even worse than this is when designers clear out the tee with righties in mind. I know in Austin, there are a number of tees where there is a tree less than a foot to the left of a tee while the right side is completely clear. (this is my #1 pet peeve in disc golf courses, largely b/c of safety)
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:31 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The most lefty favorable course I remember playing was Brookside in Indy. There are righties who will say several courses are lefty favorable when in reality, the course has a pretty good balance. Righties are so used to having it their way that a balanced course will feel like it's been designed with a lefty bias.

So called lefty holes aren't always easier for lefties and so called righty holes aren't always easier for righties. The fairway bending left or right isn't the only factor. Not only do less experienced designers favor righties in general, but even on their holes that bend right that are supposed to favor lefties, a righty turnover shot can be the more favorable flight path than a lefty hyzer or righty forehand. Mark Ellis can definitely pipe in on this one. In addition, the first trees off the tee are typically staggered in favor of the righties versus lefties.



Mark Ellis plays Grand Woods fairly frequently so you can ask him what he thinks. I like playing courses that force me into new shot techniques I think it makes me a better player.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby JHern » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:43 pm

MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:32 pm

JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.


Why is it that some people make you spell everything out exactly Dude?

Would the post have been more readable if I had spent the time to say that most course favor a right hand back hand throw thrown either flat or with a hyzer angle such that the disc either flies left the whole way or finishes left and I was wanting people to list courses that had more holes that favor either a left hand back hand throw thrown flat or with a hyzer angle or possibly a right hand forehand throw that mimics a lefty back hand throw?
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby MR. WICK » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:34 am

.......I throw lefty. A lot of shots that people (guys who throw rhbh) say are lefty holes really arent and vise versa. Some shots yield a great result when a turnover or anhyzer is thrown where it's tough for someone throwing with the opposite hand to get down there throwing a hyzer (wickham park hole 9 rightys park it with an anhyzer, a lefty hzer has to be so high and perfect to get there....you can do it but a righty anhyzer is much easier). I like courses that are balanced and it's sometimes tough to do with the landscape that the course needs to be designed on. A perfect example of a course that drives a lefty crazy is Buffumville Lake (ok here is another blind righty hyzer....followed by ANOTHER blind righty hyzer....followed by yet ANOTHER blind righty hyzer.....Followed by a huge bomber with water and ob on the right WTF! this string of holes has caused me a lot of problems, 12,13,14,15,16 that's more than half the back nine that is a blind rh hyzer or ob on the right not a good design).

My lefty frindly list from New England.
1. Barre Falls (a counter clockwise course so lots of natural "lefty shots")
2. Crane Hill
3. Highlands of Conway
4. West Thompson Lake
5. Wickham Park (perfect balance imo)
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby swan » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:20 am

MIdiscgolfer wrote:
JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.


Why is it that some people make you spell everything out exactly Dude?

Would the post have been more readable if I had spent the time to say that most course favor a right hand back hand throw thrown either flat or with a hyzer angle such that the disc either flies left the whole way or finishes left and I was wanting people to list courses that had more holes that favor either a left hand back hand throw thrown flat or with a hyzer angle or possibly a right hand forehand throw that mimics a lefty back hand throw?


Ahhh yes. The 88-word sentence. A highly underrated form of communication. And in the form of a question no less ensuring 100% readability and comprehension.

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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:49 pm

MIdiscgolfer wrote:
JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.


Why is it that some people make you spell everything out exactly Dude?


Because the question makes no sense, Dude. I have never once seen a course that gives an advantage to a person based on their right or left handedness.

Unless perhaps both 1. you have no balance in your throwing game and 2. you have no good smoothly turning/gently fading discs to throw backhand.

The great thing about disc golf courses is how they use the pre-existing natural layout of the landscape and flora. Each course is truly unique. It would be foolish to select the tee/basket locations based on a preference for right or left curving fairways. The best designed courses have both. Granted, you can swap the tee and basket locations to turn a right curving fairway into a left curving one, but the other characteristics are likely to become totally different unless the fairways have exact mirror symmetry about the mid-line from tee to basket (which would be very rare, indeed). Doing so might not fit the flow of the course in going from one to the next unless you do that to all of the holes.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby Smoke » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:45 pm

JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:
JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.


Why is it that some people make you spell everything out exactly Dude?


Because the question makes no sense, Dude. I have never once seen a course that gives an advantage to a person based on their right or left handedness...


Say what? That statement makes no sense at all. The only time a hole does not give an advantage to one hand or the other is on a wide open, straight shot. If a hole curves one way or another, then I hate to burst your bubble but the person who's natural disc fade goes in that direction has the advantage. The reason being, the other person has to force their disc to make the unnatural curve in order to go towards the basket. There is a larger margin of error for that person, that's just basic common sense.


Example. #6 at GrandWoods, like MIdiscgolfer has stated it is aprox 300ft ish. Basket is out on a peninsula to the left of the tee. Water on the left, path bordered by trees on the right. For a right handed player the optimal shot is a big anhyzer out over the water. If played correctly you have a park job with an easy deuce, possibly as ace run. A left handed player can throw their normal shot, knowing that it will naturally fade to the right, making the chance of getting wet very small. If the right handed player doesn't turn it enough, or a gust of wind comes up or any other number of things happens it is very easy for the disc to stall out and go wet, hence left hands have the advantage on this hole.




MIdiscgolfer wrote:Hole 16) Righty hole (slight advantage) the hardest thing on this hole is to get it through
the trees. If you do tho you want to finish left.
Hole 17) Lefty hole uphill to a basket in the trees the only open lane starts left and then
comes back right to hit a small opening in the trees.
Hole 18) Righty hole throw it low out to the right let it hyzer back once it clears the hill to
park it.


Hole 16 - Rights have a big advantage. There is a hole in the tree canopy. If you are standing on the pad, its to your right, above a clearing on the ground. Seen a lot of big sky hyzers come in an park it. Jon McGeachy as well as a member from this board Chainbanger come to mind as people who I have seen use it a number of times.

Hole 17 - There are a few openings in the small group of trees right in front of you. I have seen a a number of people throw a roller up there, for the life of me though I can't get one to hit those small gaps.

Hole 18 - This I would say is a neutral hole. I used to think it was a righty hole until I seen some leftys dominate it. The trees to the left are not really that bad to make it though, and it actully leaves you with a pretty good shot since you have a lower chance of going into the woods. People like Bill Lower, Dennis Flint, and Red come to mind as people who tear it up left handed here.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby JHern » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:41 am

Smoke wrote:
JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:
JHern wrote:
MIdiscgolfer wrote:It seems that most courses favor right handers (ie the holes curve left).


There is no such thing as a "lefty" or "righty" course. Work on your forehand, dude.


Why is it that some people make you spell everything out exactly Dude?


Because the question makes no sense, Dude. I have never once seen a course that gives an advantage to a person based on their right or left handedness...


Say what? That statement makes no sense at all. The only time a hole does not give an advantage to one hand or the other is on a wide open, straight shot. If a hole curves one way or another, then I hate to burst your bubble but the person who's natural disc fade goes in that direction has the advantage. The reason being, the other person has to force their disc to make the unnatural curve in order to go towards the basket. There is a larger margin of error for that person, that's just basic common sense.


Read the exception in my post:

JHern wrote:Unless perhaps both 1. you have no balance in your throwing game...


I think you are referring to #1.

I can't think of any reason why somebody would want to be unbalanced (i.e., to throw exclusively backhand or exclusively forehand) except maybe:
A) they just don't feel like putting in the work to achieve and maintain balance (e.g., for the casual player who is less interested in maximizing their game),
B) their one style of throwing is so good that they really don't need another (I've seen this comment made about Ken Climo some place...that his backhand is so good and so versatile that he can compete with balanced players on any kind of hole/course), or
C) they have a physical handicap that prevents it (I know several in this category).

If you fall into category A or C above, then you might actually think about righty or lefty course design biases.

If you are balanced, or in category B, the problem goes away and you'd find this question to be a bit strange.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:19 am

The only time a hole does not give an advantage to one hand or the other is on a wide open, straight shot. If a hole curves one way or another, then I hate to burst your bubble but the person who's natural disc fade goes in that direction has the advantage.

I hate to burst your bubble but this is not true either. I guarantee there are many right curving holes in the woods where a lefty backhand hyzer doesn't work well and only a righty backhand anhyzer will match the flight path. In fact, this is the insidious design issue that hampers lefties more than anything. A designer who doesn't pay attention to the difference between righty anhyzer versus lefty hyzer/ righty forehand flight paths can continue to screw with lefties even if they have several holes that bend right that make you think the course is better balanced than it is.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby MR. WICK » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:22 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
The only time a hole does not give an advantage to one hand or the other is on a wide open, straight shot. If a hole curves one way or another, then I hate to burst your bubble but the person who's natural disc fade goes in that direction has the advantage.

I hate to burst your bubble but this is not true either. I guarantee there are many right curving holes in the woods where a lefty backhand hyzer doesn't work well and only a righty backhand anhyzer will match the flight path. In fact, this is the insidious design issue that hampers lefties more than anything. A designer who doesn't pay attention to the difference between righty anhyzer versus lefty hyzer/ righty forehand flight paths can continue to screw with lefties even if they have several holes that bend right that make you think the course is better balanced than it is.

Thanks Chuck.....that's what I was trying to say earlier. Lots of players think because a hole moves left to right that it is a lefty hole.....NOT TRUE.
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:49 pm

I'm sorry but I can't believe how incredibly stupid this thread has become. Did noone understand that I was using "Lefty Hole" as a short hand description so I wouldn't have to list all the different types of shots that would work on a given hole? Really because I said "Lefty Hole" people assume I have no balance in my game? I know players that have multipl 1000 rated rounds on that course that refer to those holes as lefty holes. Mark Ellis who throws RHFH says he loves lefty holes because they favor his forehand. But I guess neither of them are balanced players. The course I described above is my home course. I play in a foot of snow. I play at night. I go there on my lunch hour and practice those "Lefty Holes". But because I used the term "Lefty Hole" some Noob that just broke 300' is gonna come on and tell me I don't have a balanced game. If there is a course out there that is more conducive to forcing you to have a balanced game I'd like to hear about it. Which by the way was the point of the post in the first place I like courses that force you to have a variety of shots that's why I wanted to hear about the ones near you.

Sorry for the rant I snapped a little :oops:
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Re: Lefty Courses

Postby JHern » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:15 pm

MIdiscgolfer wrote:I'm sorry but I can't believe how incredibly stupid this thread has become...Which by the way was the point of the post in the first place I like courses that force you to have a variety of shots that's why I wanted to hear about the ones near you.

Sorry for the rant I snapped a little :oops:


OK...I think we were talking past one another. I originally thought you were saying that by virtue of being a lefty or righty (i.e., what hand do you write with?) that a given course would favor you. According to the way you framed it, this would only be true if you only threw exclusively backhand. Now I think I get your original point...you just didn't feel the need to elaborate. There was confusion as a result. And yes, the thread is now utterly stupid.

Also, I am definitely a noob with under 2 years experience (you were there once too, I assume). Sorry if this makes some things that aren't better-explained perhaps a little confusing to me at times...maybe more years will give me a better feel for that.

My own balance isn't as good as I would like...These days I have 350' forehand distance, while my backhand just got over the 300' mark (as you noted). When I began playing all I knew was the forehand. I actually stopped throwing forehand for a period of time so that I could develop a backhand. It has been tough because the backhand motion always seemed a bit unnatural to me. Now it is starting to click and I have grown to like the backhand quite a lot. So I am still a bit unbalanced by the uneven limitations of both of my throwing styles and their order or development. I have more distance with my forehand right now, but less accuracy. My backhand is fairly accurate, but somewhat less distance.

On the courses I play often there are a good mixture of all kinds of holes. Multiple pin placements at these courses change things up too even for the same hole, especially with wanting a right fade or left fade near the end of the flight. For a gradual right turning fairway I actually prefer throwing RHBH getting a little bit of turn on the disc...this works better for me. More sharp turns demand RHFH. It would totally suck if a course were designed to have left curving fairways in order to fit into a RHBH biased scheme. I guess I haven't really seen this before, or if it was present I didn't notice it. Maybe I just haven't played enough courses. Yes, need to travel around and play more...that is a good goal for 2009.
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