What I think...challenging the "sticky"

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What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:36 pm

I must disagree with the "sticky".

Discs should be grouped by function: driver, 5 wood, 5 iron, putter.

Driver
Fairway Driver
Mid
Putter

driver
5 wood
5 iron
putter

Same thing.
This is exactly the way Blake explained it to me.

The only thing is that we have direction within the class (ball golf does not):
Driver (right. straight, left)
Fairway Driver (right. straight, left)
Mid (right. straight, left)
Putter (right. straight, left)

Usually this directional change equates to a mild change in mold within the class (like a Banshee over a Teebird) or "new" to "beat" within the class.

There is no argument whatsoever if someone lists there stack of Rocs from least stable to most stable within the same group to achieve various flights. Why not treat all discs the same way? I believe this would be in tune with the way Blake identifies discs. He always tries to get people to understand what "class" their discs fall into, and push people to throw discs to their capability.

Why would you want a "driver" speed disc for your overstable/understable/straight slot when you throw 300'? YOU WOULD NOT! In fact, you should not have a single "driver" in your bag at all if you throw 300'. So, as a coach, I would eliminate the "driver" class altogether in this example. Instant disc minimalism. "When you can hit your 5 wood wherever you want, you can have a driver", I believe this is truly in the spirit of Blake's minimalism.

The way I listed the discs makes it very easy to see where the disc lies in the speed chain and instantly shows when people are throwing discs out of their range.

True disc minimalism would have most people not even throwing a driver class disc. Most people do not even understand speed, and the fact that it very rarely adds real distance gains.

I guess this disagrees with the idea of "identifying overlap" as the sole function of listing your bag. I do not think that is the main function. I think the main function is to get players to understand what their discs "do" and how they fit their throw based on their distance, and THEN worry about overlap. I find that grouping ultimately leads to minimalism, because many time a whole group can be eliminated. Again, I believe this is right out of Blake's little book.
Last edited by Bradley Walker on Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What I think

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:43 pm

An example:

I throw 400' straight.

My bag:

Star Teerex-X 175 (stable-straight to hard fade and hysers)
Star 12x Wraith (domey) 175 (straight and stable hyserflipper like Teebird)
Star 12x Wraith (domey 175 (old and beat) turns and burns like Valk BOMBER!

Star Leopard 175 (like 2 year old Star Teebird)
Star Teebird 175 (straight)
Star Teebird 175 (more fade)
Champ Banshee 175 (slower Pred)
Star Whippet X 175 (skip, spike, trick shot pig)

DX San Marino 180 (white Twisted stamp-turns like Leopard)
DX San Marino 180 (yellow Solti stamp-straight to fade)
DX San Marino 180 (Red-St Louis stamp-strong and stable)
Champ Glow Rancho Roc 180 (very stable)

1080 Black 172
1080 Black 172
1080 Driver 175 (rotates in when needed)

Note: Notice I do not have an overstable "driver". This is because I cannot throw a truly overstable "driver" any further than I can throw a truly overstable "control or fairway driver". Chances are you cannot either...also distance is not he function of a truly overstable disc

If I threw 300' I would eliminate all the discs that require speed.

My 300' bag:

Leopard (right)
Teebird (straight)
Banshee (left)

DX San Marino Roc (right)
DX San Marino Roc (straight)
DX San Marino Roc (left)

1080 (right)
1080 (left)

Instantly disc minimalism.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby garublador » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:07 pm

The sticky is based directly on this article:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... rlap.shtml

Many of us learned a vast majority of what we know about disc golf from this site. I don't see how it could possibly not make sense to base the format in which bags are posted on an article from this site, especally when parts of it directly contradict other things posted here.

This is exactly the way Blake explained it to me.
Then why isn't the Overlap Article set up that way? He's the one who wrote it, you know. Most of the arguments you make actually support using the format we already have.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:42 pm

garublador wrote:The sticky is based directly on this article:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... rlap.shtml

Many of us learned a vast majority of what we know about disc golf from this site. I don't see how it could possibly not make sense to base the format in which bags are posted on an article from this site, especally when parts of it directly contradict other things posted here.

This is exactly the way Blake explained it to me.
Then why isn't the Overlap Article set up that way? He's the one who wrote it, you know. Most of the arguments you make actually support using the format we already have.


That article is about bag overlap. I just explained why overlap is a secondary concern to getting people into discs that they should be throwing, which is what BAG EVALUATING is all about. Most people do not even understand how discs are classified.

Anyway, I have spoken to Blake about this subject a lot. I do not think he is married to anything other than establishing the fact that people would be better off with less discs, and slower discs. Period. He also uses the ball golf example quite often trying to make people understand. Interestingly, I also spoke to Dave McCormack about the same subject and he tried to use the ball golf naming at one time (interestingly no one bought it).

Talk to Blake and he will tell you that most people would shoot the same score and improve more with a Cyclone, Roc and a Wizard (and I tend to agree). However, this bag evaluation makes for very boring threads.

Lastly, when was that written? How many speeds of discs have come out since it was written? 5?
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Dogma » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:11 pm

You aren't challenging the sticky. I think you're talking about two different (but related) things. Blake's article about disc minimalism is about learning how to throw your discs a variety of ways and know them well vs. having a ton of discs, throwing throwing them all the same, and letting the disc determine the flight path. You're saying that speed is a significant and often misunderstood factor in disc selection and learning to throw well. It seems like you're agreeing with Blake's article, and simply adding the (useful) point that speed will be a natural limiter in disc selection/minimalism. Your analogy to the four types of golf clubs is a good illustration of your point. You're building on the disc minimalism concept, not contradicting it.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:19 pm

I am a huge fan of minimalism (I am also a huge fan of Blake's ideas).

Now that there are SO MANY speeds of discs, identifying items in the bag that do not fit is more difficult.

Hence, the addition of classes.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby garublador » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:25 pm

The point is having a consistant message throughout the site. If what's posted on the message board matches up with what's posted in the articles everything that's said has more credibility and is easier to understand. The other point is to point people to that article first before asking one of the same questions that gets answered over and over again. Do you know how many fewer times people have had to write, "You need to add a very overstable driver like a Pred or Firebird," since this format has been used? Do you know how many fewer bags we've seen that have no slower drivers in them? The average bag posted on here has improved greatly since that sticky has gone into effect because people know where to look and what to look for ahead of time.

Bradley Walker wrote:That article is about bag overlap. I just explained why overlap is a secondary concern to getting people into discs that they should be throwing, which is what BAG EVALUATING is all about. Most people do not even understand how discs are classified.
The part that the sticky is based on is about "ideal driver selection." If that's not applicable to bag evaluation I don't know what is.

Anyway, I have spoken to Blake about this subject a lot. I do not think he is married to anything other than establishing the fact that people would be better off with less discs, and slower discs. Period.
A player's skill is still taken into account when evaulating a bag. If someone's not throwing over 300' (and they say that in their post) then it still won't make sense to suggest high speed drivers. You'll still want discs for all of those spots, it's just that slower discs will fill the moderately overstable, distance and potentially very overstable driver slots.

He also uses the ball golf example quite often trying to make people understand. Interestingly, I also spoke to Dave McCormack about the same subject and he tried to use the ball golf naming at one time (interestingly no one bought it).
So what club do you use to go left (the 5 or 6 iron according to Gateway)? Which one gives the best 'S' curve? Which club do you sidearm with? What about tomahawk? It's better as an analogy for disc speed than a method for building or evaluating a bag. As for why it failed for Gateway, they didn't have enough discs out to make a full golf bag. It was the Wizard, Sabre, Blaze, Demon, Speed Demon and Spirit. The Sabre/Apache, Speed Demon and Spirit were all "1's," (that's right the Speed Demon was in the same category as the Sabre), the Blaze/Warrior was a "3," I believe, the Demon/Scout was a "6/5" respectfully and the Wizard was a "9." I suppose giving each disc like 3 names couldn't have helped, either.

Lastly, when was that written? How many speeds of discs have come out since it was written? 5?
3-3-06. Speed 10 discs were around when I started in 2004, the Wraith (one of the first "speed 11" discs) came out in '05, so the answer to the second question is 2 and I doubt the introduction of those discs has changed much about what the average player should be throwing.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby garublador » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:27 pm

Dogma wrote:You aren't challenging the sticky. I think you're talking about two different (but related) things.
He's saying he doesn't want to use that format for bag evaluation. The sticky says to use that format for bag evaluation. He's directly challenging the sticky. He just thinks his format is better, as far as I can tell, only because he thought of it himself.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby marmoset » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:02 pm

FWIW, I think Bradley's method is more logically laid out. I didn't want to use the suggested format when I posted my bag either. I used the same method Bradley did except I subdivided the categories from over to understable.

The suggested layout would make more sense if I thought of my Leopards as "#3 slot discs". I don't think that way and I haven't really heard other people describing their bags that way.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:04 pm

garublador wrote:The sticky says to use that format for bag evaluation. He's directly challenging the sticky.


I am sorry, that is just funny. :lol:
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby garublador » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:49 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
garublador wrote:The sticky says to use that format for bag evaluation. He's directly challenging the sticky.


I am sorry, that is just funny. :lol:
Are you challenging my quote? :wink:
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:03 pm

garublador wrote:
Bradley Walker wrote:
garublador wrote:The sticky says to use that format for bag evaluation. He's directly challenging the sticky.


I am sorry, that is just funny. :lol:
Are you challenging my quote? :wink:


Its like I peed on the Koran. :lol:
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby mark12b » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:38 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:Discs should be grouped by function: driver, 5 wood, 5 iron, putter.

Driver
Fairway Driver
Mid
Putter


i don't know about the golf club categories as i don't play ball golf, but what you're doing here is grouping by speed, *not* by function. grouping by function would have categories like distance drives, headwind drives, spike hyzers and UD shots, turnovers, upshots, putts, etc. -- i.e. what the disc does.

it makes sense logically to group by speed but i think it's easier to put together a good dgr-inspired bag by following the sticky's categories. e.g. having a "stable control driver" category encourages folks to throw slower drivers that are true-stable. "fairway driver" includes all sorts of discs that wouldn't be "dgr approved" for that slot.

all i throw are fairway drivers, mids, and putters, but the specific discs in my bag *also* fit into the sticky categories, and it's the latter really makes or breaks the bag.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:55 pm

I am not saying that you cannot use the same terms (overstable, understable, etc)

I just think that group by speed makes it more consistent in terms of what one disc relative to another.

I just see so much speed mixing. Some bags are all over the map.
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Re: What I think...challenging the "sticky"

Postby Dogma » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:12 pm

garublador wrote:
Dogma wrote:You aren't challenging the sticky. I think you're talking about two different (but related) things.
He's saying he doesn't want to use that format for bag evaluation. The sticky says to use that format for bag evaluation. He's directly challenging the sticky.

Oh THAT sticky. I was looking at the minimalism sticky, not the bag evaluation one. Sometimes I don't pay attention very well.

mark12b wrote:it makes sense logically to group by speed but i think it's easier to put together a good dgr-inspired bag by following the sticky's categories. e.g. having a "stable control driver" category encourages folks to throw slower drivers that are true-stable. "fairway driver" includes all sorts of discs that wouldn't be "dgr approved" for that slot.


Agree. Both are valuable, but they are different. Brad's way is prettier and easy to explain to a novice. But the stickied method is about what discs do, which is the ultimate goal. Speed is a factor in what they do, but it is only one of the factors. Although it is important and often overlooked, it isn't the whole picture. The stickied method gets to the end result.
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