Trying to reduce my molds...

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Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby j_mardis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:21 am

Stable Control Drivers
Pro Wraith - mod. flippy
Champ Wraith
Champ Eagle - not used much to drive bh, mostly thumbers

Distance Drivers
Pro Destroyer
Champ Boss - not sure

Understable Driver
Champ Sidewinder
Star Roadrunner (roller)

Moderately Overstable Driver
Star Teerex
Champ Banshee - thumber (took out)

Very Overstable Driver
Champ Monster
Champ Firebird

Mids:
Sparkle Squall
Star Cro
ESP Comet
DX Cheetah (roller)

Putters:
S Wizards (driver)
2-DX Aviar pna

Rotate in and out:
DX Roc
X Challenger
Pro Line Squall
11x Champ Teebird
Star Xcalliber

I know... WAAAAAAY too many molds.

I have been playing for just over two years and I have advanced very quickly. It is time to simplify and learn more about how to throw, not just what to throw.

My average d is 380-400 (destroyer/wraith) and I drive with putters quite often (sometimes not often enough).

I don't like rocs - they just don't feel good in my hand/on release. I have been playing 3 disc rounds with a champ tbird, dx roc, and a dx aviar. I don't think I want to add the tbird or roc to my bag.

Note: I throw a BOMB thumber with my champ firebird so it has to stay no matter what

Changes:
1. Choose either RR or SW for understable/roller (most likely move to beat star sidewinder)
2. Take out Boss (Destroyer), Teerex (champ wraith), monster (firebird) - I hate to do this, but i have to cut something out, comet (squall), and cheetah (st sidewinder)
3. Add gap disc between wraiths and sidewinder (???) for distance stable control driver?

New bag: 12 discs, 5 driver molds, 2 mid molds, 2 putter molds
Stable Control Drivers
Pro Wraith - straight to flippy
Champ Eagle - not used much to drive bh, mostly thumbers

Distance Drivers
Pro Destroyer

Understable Driver/Roller
Star Sidewinder

Moderately Overstable Driver
Champ Wraith

Very Overstable Driver
Champ Firebird

Mids:
Sparkle Squall
Star Cro

Putters:
2-S Wizards one beat and one newish (driver)
2-DX Aviar pna
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby curt » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:14 am

I think you could pick between the destroyer and the wraith, I know that the pro destroyer is probably quite flippy and great for D, but you could get a star/champ one that ought to fly similar enough to the wraith to replace it. Also, I don't really know how a squall flies, but you ought to be able to get by with just cros in different levels of beatness.

also, what issue are you having with the teebird? b/c a wraith really isn't a control driver, and you would do yourself a huge favor by adding one to your bag (maybe try a gazelle, xl, leopard, cyclone, or sabre)
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby RustyP » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:16 pm

I'd say if you can throw a good thumber with a Firebird, you could probably take out the Eagle. I had the same thing going on with my bag back when I had a decent thumber. My Champion Eagle-x felt better in the hand compared to a Firebird, but both performed about the same...so out came the Eagle.
in the bag: pd2 / destroyer / orion lf / sidewinder /eagle / teebird / rancho roc / fuse / ion / jokeri / wizard
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby garublador » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:22 pm

j_mardis wrote:My average d is 380-400 (destroyer/wraith) and I drive with putters quite often (sometimes not often enough).
IMO, improving beyond that will be very difficult without a slower control driver. The DX Gazelle, D Cyclone and DX Eagle-X are my favorites for this. The Teebird is an excellent driver, but IMO not as great of a learning tool. Once you have it down you won't find anything with the same combination of control, straight flight and distance, but getting to that point is easier with other discs.

I don't like rocs - they just don't feel good in my hand/on release. I have been playing 3 disc rounds with a champ tbird, dx roc, and a dx aviar. I don't think I want to add the tbird or roc to my bag.
If you have any Rocs I'd recommend making them work. If you don't want to use them after you've gotten so they work for you that's fine, but if you can't throw a Roc it's definitely you, not the disc.

While I think carrying specific discs for specific, low frequency shots is bad, I also woudln't worry about carrying a specific thumber disc as long as that's all you use it for. It's hard to make a disc selection error if you're only using it for one, non traditional shot. It's more of a shot selection error if you mess up at that point. I don't carry anything like that because my thumber isn't good enough to warrant it's own disc. Mine is equally bad with either a Spirit or Firebird so I just carry one rather than both. ;)
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby j_mardis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:42 am

First of all, thanks to all who took the time to look over my post and responding to my questions. That is what makes this site so valuable! I tell at least a few, sometimes more people about dgr every week. Can we buy bumper (maybe smaller) stickers for the course?

Curt - I carry the wraith for turnovers that will hold the line and the destroyer for pure distance, it won't flip near as fast nor will it hold the anny line for it's entire flight like the wraith. I don't have to have both, but it sure is nice. After reading your post again, it seems like you might be talking about the champ wraith and the pro destroyer. If so, I agree, I could take out the wraith without losing anything, just a backup disc really.

The squall is like a moderately beat in roc, it is great for a hyzer flip and it will come back just a bit at the end. It will also hold an anny the whole way and turn and stay anny when thrown flat and hard. The reason I don't think a few cros (new to beat) is the glide on it sucks, it stops when it runs out of speed instead of carrying out its flight. Plus I don't have any that are really beat in. Note: After throwing today, I may have to try the cro only for mids, have to find a few beat in...

Rusty - I use the eagle for shorter holes as it turns over much faster than the firebird. They definitely have a difference in distance, the banshee and firebird were almost the same, so the banshee was shelved. Plus, the eagle is a great fairway driver.

garublador - Why do you say that improving more is difficult without a *slower* control driver exactly? I have a flat champ 11x teebird that is straight (a little over stable really) and is very stable, quite the same as my champ wraith really, the wraith would skip though.

I have tried rocs, not for an extended period of time though - no more than three weeks or so at one time. I get the disc to 'work' for me, but every time I put it in the bag, it may be that I don't like the dx grip, but mostly that I like lower profile discs. I should try another plastic or break out the ching rocs I have in the box. I am fearful of growing to need a disc and it only to be done away with. I was thinking about it today and it may be the large bead on the bottom of the roc that I don't like. I believe all of my discs I throw are beadless except for the wizard...

Jordan
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby garublador » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:52 am

j_mardis wrote:garublador - Why do you say that improving more is difficult without a *slower* control driver exactly? I have a flat champ 11x teebird that is straight (a little over stable really) and is very stable, quite the same as my champ wraith really, the wraith would skip though.
There is a lot about line shaping and nose angle that is difficult to impossible to learn with discs that are too fast or too slow (the slow discs aren't sensitive enough and the fast ones are too sensitive). If you throw your mid with not enough nose down, or a bit nose up, it will still fly well. You can compensate for not enough nose down with fast drivers by imparting OAT. With slower drivers in low end plastic you have to throw nose down to get a good flight. They're also receptive to OAT so you can learn more about controling when and how much in what direction of OAT you are imparting.

I have tried rocs, not for an extended period of time though - no more than three weeks or so at one time. I get the disc to 'work' for me, but every time I put it in the bag, it may be that I don't like the dx grip, but mostly that I like lower profile discs. I should try another plastic or break out the ching rocs I have in the box. I am fearful of growing to need a disc and it only to be done away with. I was thinking about it today and it may be the large bead on the bottom of the roc that I don't like. I believe all of my discs I throw are beadless except for the wizard...

Jordan
IMO, the Roc is the ultimate barometer for how well you're throwing. If you can throw a beat Roc on a hyzer, anhyzer or straight for decent mid-type distance, you can throw any midrange. One reason they're pushed is because it reduces the chance of you being dependent on any certain disc. If the Roc flies well you're doing it right.

All in all I'd say the advice I'm giving isn't nearly as important for you to follow as someone throwing shorter, but without more information about how good you are at line shaping, what your 380'-400' flights look like, how putters and mids fly for you, etc, I'd rather error on the safe side.
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby curt » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am

I was indeed talking about the champ wraith vs the pro destroyer for distance. though, I was also considering other plastics to. Perhaps a newer pro (i find those wraiths have a sweet spot thats 5-6 tree hits that is great for distance b/f they start turning over) or maybe a star.

Also, one quick question on the mids. Do you have a dx cro? (a few of your comments made it sound like you did not). I think it would beat in quickly and be perfect for that anny slot. If you get one, play with it exclusively until it starts turning over for you.
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby j_mardis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:59 am

garublador - I am going to pick up a new dx gazelle asap. I did throw my buddies champ gazelle last week and it went straight as can be for 330 or so with a little hyzer flip. Would a champ gazelle be the same as the dx for the intended purpose - you did mention slower drivers in low end plastic?

I am not all the way familiar with OAT yet, but I am working on it.

I get the roc to work for me on all lines I throw it, hyz/strt/anny, I just don't like the grip I get on the dx and the bead feels awkward in my hand. Would you suggest moving to a different roc mold, or just stick with the cro/squall? BTW, the roc flies great when I throw it, I get 300-340 (depending on how hard it is thrown of course) out of it with what seems like a really slow flight.

How can I get you more information on how good I am at line shaping and how my slower discs fly for me? I am pretty comfortable throwing an anny with any disc in my bag, and I love to hyzer flip my aviar/squall/wraith. I finally tried blake's training assignment #1 and I have notes on it if that helps.

curt - I didn't throw the champ wraith once in the time I have been carrying my new bag setup as stated above. I prefer pro plastic to star usually, and the new pro coming out is a lot closer to the earlier star plastic than the old pro plastic which sucks. I think I have a good combo with the pro wraith/pro destroyer for my distance with all lines.

I still think I am missing something between the wraith and eagle for control driving, or am I overlooking the eagle for that spot? It flies very similar to the gazelle I threw of my buddies.

I am trying to decide if I should keep my star rr (somewhat new) in the bag for annys/rollers or put a beat star sidewinder in that is less stable than the rr, especially at low speeds. Any suggestions?

As for the dx cro, I don't have one yet, but I will asap and get it worked in to decide on that vs the cro/squall combo.

Thanks all,

Jordan
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Re: Trying to reduce my molds...

Postby garublador » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:11 am

j_mardis wrote:garublador - I am going to pick up a new dx gazelle asap. I did throw my buddies champ gazelle last week and it went straight as can be for 330 or so with a little hyzer flip. Would a champ gazelle be the same as the dx for the intended purpose - you did mention slower drivers in low end plastic?
A DX Gazelle will turn more (but still be on the overstable side when new), be easier to control and longer than a Champ.

I am not all the way familiar with OAT yet, but I am working on it.
Controlling OAT is how you shape lines, so yeah...keep at it!

I get the roc to work for me on all lines I throw it, hyz/strt/anny, I just don't like the grip I get on the dx and the bead feels awkward in my hand. Would you suggest moving to a different roc mold, or just stick with the cro/squall? BTW, the roc flies great when I throw it, I get 300-340 (depending on how hard it is thrown of course) out of it with what seems like a really slow flight.
You're probably fine then. My advice was generic. I find that when someone says they throw 380'-400' that can mean anything from "I actually throw my drivers 300', but use innacurate measurements," to "I've thrown my fastest driver that far on a distance line and actually throw closer to 330'," to "I can comfortably throw fairway drivers that far," to "I throw distance drivers that far and could throw fairway drivers nearly that far if I explored more lines and heights." With the information you're giving you sound like the last one. It's not a bad place to be. I will say that many of us, me included, have felt the same way as you, tried a bunch of mids and ended back on the Roc. So be ready for that next season. ;)

How can I get you more information on how good I am at line shaping and how my slower discs fly for me? I am pretty comfortable throwing an anny with any disc in my bag, and I love to hyzer flip my aviar/squall/wraith. I finally tried blake's training assignment #1 and I have notes on it if that helps.
Much of the information you're giving helps a lot. Message board distance is really rampant, mostly due to inaccurate hole measurments (apparently I play at one of the worst courses for this according to Blake). I'm not trying to suggest people, or specifically, you are lying about their D, just that it's a difficult thing to accurately report on. Plus, there are people in other categories that I listed above than you that are also reading this thread. I'd rather give overly generic advice that's a bit less helpful than specific advice that might be counterproductive.

I still think I am missing something between the wraith and eagle for control driving, or am I overlooking the eagle for that spot? It flies very similar to the gazelle I threw of my buddies.
My guess would be that you're overlooking the Eagle for that spot. The Gazelle will be shorter. It's probably more a matter of exploring more lines with your fairway drivers. You'll probably find that there's a lot less difference in golf D between those discs than you thought. It's also worth noting that many times DX fairway drivers are significantly easier to throw farther and control distance with than Champ drivers.
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