FTT's (slower) bag project

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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby JR » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:16 am

Changing weights in a PD will do a lot and at your power a 150 S PD can still be too beefy especially in tight spots. A PD when flat will break into straight fast in 150 class but also wear to flipping not coming back in 3-5 months of prime driver duty. A first run S PD 150 was beefier than the later runs and at my power perfectly good into a headwind. P will be way less beefy when broken in and not so great in headwinds.

275' with an MD2 is a tricky thing to beat at low power in tunnels. It means that you need a long mid because the MD 2 is already one of the longest mids. There are significantly longer mids out there but only a few and they all fade. The Coyote is only a little longer to as long as the MD 2 and a Mako is not many feet apart from those two. Comet is the low power requirement mid by a long margin. Sure a Fuse at a lower power won't be as flippy as it is when pounded but it will fade too. Axis glides so much that it fades far off the line once the fade kicks in. Warship flips and doesn't stay on the fairway once the fade kicks in. Kinda like the Axis. Ibex is easy to make not flipping because out of these discs it is the most HSS but the LSS is also the highest so it won't stay on line in the end. Scout and Warrior (the new mid) fade even more but can flip especially in the wind. The raw deal is that if you can't get the Comet to 275' you're outta luck until you get more power or break a Leo in to straight. That means a broken in Pro or DX. Pro Leo starts out flipping so it can be beaten to less fading fast and when it does it'll flip like a DX Leo=a lot.

One possible quick fix would be examining the apex height you use to get to 275' with the mids. If you throw low you have enough power and low shots don't move a lot sideways. Warship, Axis, Comet and Fuse won't fade out on low lines. Coyote on low lines is probably a little too high power requirement disc for you but without ceiling limits it should be fine. The Coyote has an edge on all of those other discs in not flipping a lot and not fading a lot. It is one or the other or both for the other discs.

Another quick fix would be a DX Leopard broken in. For control i'd pick a heavy one because Leos break into flippy and where you live that will happen fast with all the woods and tree hits. The benefit of this approach is to get the lowest power requirement and the loosest arm muscles from the easiest grip. Semantics problem here. Power vs foot the Comet might have a small advantage over the Leo dunno. With the easier grip of the Leo factored in to that the scale tips IMO in favor of a heavy DX Leo because power generation with control needs loose muscles and underpowered throwing. Loose arm muscles mean better efficiency and accuracy of the throw.

If the Leo proves too flippy a shorter and harder fading Stalker in under max weight with low apexes should work.

It is up to you to decide how daunting the low height requirement is. From what i understand and have seen on video low apexes are a must on many holes around you. How low you want to go and must go from hole requirements determines which disc you should try first. Leo has a way lower apex requirement than the others with the Stalker being the second closely followed by the Fuse. Comet needs a little more height. BTW Comets vary in the fading characteristics. Primo plastics do fade and too much for tunnels on high lines but the more flipping X Comet stays straighter better. It will break in to even more flippy than new.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:31 pm

Not sure I want to go with a DX Leo. It wouldn't last in the woods around here. My 172 Star Leo is a laser at 80%, and glides on low lines out to 325' if I get the angle right. It needs a little initial hyzer for a laser line at those distances. Down to 250' it can be thrown flat, but I like the reliability of a slower disc at that range. As for apex heights, a lot of courses around here require lower lines, so a neutral to slightly understable mid with a lot of glide is probably what I'm looking for.

Do you think maybe I should just stick with my D MD2's and work on getting them on the right line for tunnels? They glide pretty well, but not like what I remember an Axis would do. It could be that they are 178g, and/or that MD2's require a lot of spin to keep them going, but I've recently thought about keeping my flat C MD2 for my workhorse mid and adding in another mold for low lines and finesse shots.

From what I've been reading, a Super Stingray could fit the bill. I'll consider a base plastic Comet too, but if I can find a laser straight mid that stays in the same spot for a long time (super stingray?), then I'd favor that.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:35 pm

Also, picked up 2 Magics today. Just couldn't resist. They are both SS, but one is really stiff and flat (170g), while the other is softer and gives more (165g). Both have superb grip.

I'll probably use these alongside P2's for a while to see how I like it. The 170 SS Magic has more grip than any of my other putters AND has a firmer plate than all the rest. It'll probably take over for putting duties...plus it's black.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby JR » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:48 am

The Super Stingray has some fade and thrown higher will move a lot r>l in the fade because it holds height well even when fading. Another option that goes straight and longer than the MD2 is Westside Warship. Too bad it too will move a lot sideways in the fade at height. Especially when thrown at only 250'. It is more friendly in HSS than the Axis if you have release issues but it will also fade more than the MD2.

X Comet 175 has a very different throw than other mids with insanely little power requirement out to 250'. At such low power it probably will hold up a long time. Again if you hyzer it it will move a lot sideways in the fade. The curse of high glide discs. In that respect the MD2 beats all of the longer more gliding mids in control. The other side of the coin is the reduced need for throwing hard which changes the thrower error side of the equation.

I think your question is what do you want and need to do in the short and the long term. Get more power and skills or a disc that will immediately suite you better on the local holes. The more tight woods you have and especially with slippery footing the more the Comet will excel. Still i would not rule out a Coyote as an in between version between the two worlds of gliding discs and the MD2 type less gliding long mids.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:36 pm

That's a good point on short vs. long term. I want to put a high priority on learning better control instead of staying where I'm at and just relying on a different disc, because I know the MD2 will work for me. Just gotta keep at it.

I played this afternoon and switched to a power grip with my MD2's. My flat C MD2 was still super straight and about 20' longer. It might have even had less fade than when thrown with a split fork control grip because of the added spin.

Also, with a power grip my D MD2's would flip from hyzer (yay!) and one of them I've learned will keep moving right the whole flight (RHBH) unless there's enough hyzer initially. So once I dial those in and learn hyzer angles needed between a power grip and my other grip (split fork hybrid-ish), I think I should have all the shots I need.

Long, low ceiling shots = C MD2, flat throw, power grip
Low Power/High Ceilings/Line Shaping = D MD2, grip and hyzer accordingly
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:35 pm

Back to the bag - here's the 12 + 2 setup that I'm going to stick with for the Spring/Summer. I took out the Wraiths and Blizzard Katana because my TD's are just about as long as my Wraiths and the Blizz-tana can be difficult to control. I would keep them both it in the bag if I wasn't slimming down. Control is a greater priority with this bag. (bold = dont have it yet)

Also, Magics are in. Awesome glide, point-and-shoot accuracy, understable on drives, amazing grip. Not sure what else I could ask for.

Drivers
170 C/S Valkyrie - distance, tailwinds
175 12x Champ FB (flatish) - beef, overhand
169 S PD - new, headwinds, big hyzers
168 S PD - seasoned, forehands, overstable, workable
172 S TD - stable control with more fade
169 C/S TD - stable control with less fade
172 Star Leopard - understable, fairway

Mids
175 CFR Gator
178 C MD2 - flat, gummy
176 Champion Super Stingray - straight shots, gliiiide
178 D MD2 - beat

Putters
171 D P2 - drives, hyzer approaches, soft and tacky
170 SS Magic - main putter, stiff and tacky
165 SS Magic - understable drives, approach, soft and tacky

In a grey Fade Crunch.
Last edited by Fightingthetide on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:14 pm

Here's the champystar Valk. It's a tad bit more purple than the photo shows.

EDIT - and this is officially in the bag. Beautiful flight with a late turn and a dependable fade that isn't harsh like other Valks I have thrown. Picking up a few for replacements. These go about 20 to 30 feet shorter than my Blizzard Katana, but that's only if I get the Katana on the right line. The increase in accuracy with these is making me drop the Blizzards for now.

Image
Last edited by Fightingthetide on Mon May 07, 2012 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:06 pm

I'm thinking of replacing my Leopard. I'm wanting something with more glide than a Star Leopard but similar lines - subtle turn and fade. I've found Leo's with more glide, but they usually have more dome and are harder to rip. The one I have has minimal dome, so it feels great in the hand, but it lacks glide. Am I talking about an FD, River, or something else?
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby JR » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:27 am

I think my FD S-Line is off based on how others describe the flight so i can't say about that. The River glides way more and it fades more, is faster and longer. The least fading Rivers are the Gold Lines. Nothing is as long and little fading as the Leo at the same speed. Z Stalker is shorter. Squall too but it fades more than the Stalker. it is probably the closest disc to the Leo outside of XL. XL has been described to be Discraft Leo but i've only thrown the rick like FLX XL so i can't say about regular XLs. They are your best bet. I've thrown a Kite almost as far as the Leo on high hyzer flip in minimal rear wind but i can't recommend it because it is flippy and fades enough on high lines to not be any straighter. But it is much more difficult to get to lock to flat and can't take the winds the Leo can. The grip ain't for many and since you like thin Leo the Kite top is likely an abomination for you. However; it could work for you in low line long distance tunnel piercer. Still shape wise the Comet is likely the better although the Kite flies farther. The lower you throw the Kite the harder it gets to keep it from flipping and it ain't any easier to throw properly as the Comet that low.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:10 pm

Thanks for your thoughts JR. I'll keep learning my Leo. It will have a spot in my bag until I beat an S TD into understable, which I know could take a while, but I know it's possible.

Had a fun round today and only played Firebird, PD, TD, MD2, Magic.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Today during a round I only found myself throwing PD's or my Valk off the tee on longer holes. I have 3 Valks from the same run, and I've been using one exclusively for distance and some stable control shots. I'm hoping it will eventually become understable for me. For now, it almost kicks out my TD's, but I'll keep them around for when the 1st Valk seasons. My 2 TD's are so similar, that I'll only have one in my bag until it seasons more.

Also, Firebird doesn't get as much D on overhand shots as PD's, so it's out. Leopard still doesn't seem to have a job yet, so I'll take it out too for a while and see how this setup goes.

I sold my Fade Tourney bag and still think I have too many with 12 in my Crunch Box. Slimming down to 10+2...any thoughts?

170 C/S Valkyrie x2 - 1 seasoned, 1 new
168 S PD x2 - 1 seasoned, 1 new
169 C/S TD

175 CFR Gator
178 C MD2 - flat, gummy
176 Champion Super Stingray - straight shots, gliiiide
178 D MD2 - beat

171 D P2 - drives, hyzer approaches, soft and tacky
170 SS Magic - main putter, stiff and tacky
165 SS Magic - understable drives, approach, soft and tacky
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby JR » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:26 am

You don't have a hard fading driver for trick shots and headwinds.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:46 am

At my distance, even my seasoned S PD handles some headwind well. Yesterday we had a very soft headwind on a few holes and my Valk flew some really long lines on a shallow hyzerflip. Any strong headwind is taken on by my new S PD.

Oh, and I do plan on to trying to find a CFR C PD sometime in the near future.
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Re: FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby JR » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:03 pm

Fightingthetide wrote:At my distance, even my seasoned S PD handles some headwind well. Yesterday we had a very soft headwind on a few holes and my Valk flew some really long lines on a shallow hyzerflip. Any strong headwind is taken on by my new S PD.

Oh, and I do plan on to trying to find a CFR C PD sometime in the near future.


That's what i'm talking about but even stiffer fades are sometimes useful. Steeper than the C PD.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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FTT's (slower) bag project

Postby Fightingthetide » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:39 pm

Okayyy if you insist ;)

My local PIAS had flat 12x firechickens, so I picked one up.

Also got a sweeeet 7/10 169 P PD, the good (softer) blend that doesn't chip apart. It would flex and bend a LOT more than my POS P PD that chipped when it hit some gravel.
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