Bag revision for Christmas

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Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:15 pm

Just recently went through a bag simplification and disc trading process. Meaning that I have got more field practice experience rather than complete rounds played with this current bag. My intention is to look through to see if there are gaps in the bag that could be filled at Christmas.

RHBH drives, drive distance 90m (Valkyrie, controllable), hoping to make that into an even 100m before New year. Forearm technique sucks, but improving that can wait until spring. Lots of wooded courses, and therefore some tomahawk throws as well. 150 Champion Leopard used to be my tomahawk placement approach disc of choice (full turn); I need to find a new tomahawk disc from my new bag now. Currently no rollers.

EDIT:
My current bag is a Väinämöisen leipälaukku by Westside Discs. Maximum capacity: 12 discs in main pocket + 1 in putter pocket. However, I prefer not to use the putter pocket in wet conditions, and to leave space for 1 gf's / friend's disc + 1 disc found from or bought at the course. -> 13 - 3 = 10 discs "core bag"; 13 discs "extended bag". I plan to use the "extended bag" in weekly friendly competitions, pair tournaments, etc.


Current 10 disc core bag:

Putters:
171 Gateway Soft Voodoo (beat up) - putt drives & short approaches; I might try a Wizard in this slot.
174 Gateway Soft Magic - putting; I might try 170g Magic because I tend to miss long putts by putting too low.

Midranges:
172 Discraft Elite X Comet - long-standing utility driver for fairways 80m and shorter & go-to midrange
170 Discraft Pro-D Buzzz - understable driver
170 Discraft Titanium Buzzz - recently acquired; for fairways requiring late fades and to compensate for my bad forearm?
177 Discraft Glow Z Buzzz - recently acquired; headwind and long hyzer midrange?

Drivers
(Previously Champion Banshee + Pro-D Eclipse + DX Leopard but then I found Buzzz -> overlap, improved my drive technique, got extra D and changed that into...)
158 NEW Innova Star Valkyrie - overstable
167 NEW Innova DX Valkyrie - stable
169 Beat-up Innova DX Valkyrie - understable

10th disc - "Hyper Max D":
Currently, 147 Starlite Roadrunner for easy standstill / wooded course distance - but that is too flippy and could be replaced ... by e.g. 160s Discmania S-line TD2 Fever or 150s Innova Blizzard Mamba?

11th disc - "The specialty disc":
I have occasional need for a floating disc. I have just recently acquired a beat-up 150 DX Dragon and a beat-up 166 Aerobie Epic in a trade. Undecided as to which one will actually make the bag until I try driving over water in practise with them. My current field practice location is not wide enough to safely practise overhead shots with unfamiliar discs (Epic).

12th disc - "Headwind putter":
170 NEW Gateway Soft Voodoo

13th disc - "The last slot"
175 Discraft Elite Z Comet - so similar to my Elite X Comet that I didn't find a good enough reason to include both in the "core bag"


Reduced bag - 3 discs (for doing a light round, e.g. after school/work):
174 Gateway Soft Magic - could be 170g Soft Magic
172 Discraft Elite X Comet
177 Discraft Glow Z Buzzz - here, a lighter weight Z or ESP FLX Buzzz might be useful


"In reserve" (not in the bag at the moment):
175 Gateway Evolution HPP Warlock - I disliked the E HPP plastic
171 Innova Star Valkyrie - too heavy at the moment, will hopefully eventually replace the 158 Star Valkyrie as my technique improves
168 S-line FD Jackal - So far, I have liked Valkyrie more
...and lots of other discs as well

Goals:
10 disc "core bag" without too many different molds. I want my bag to be maneuverable in local & long-distance transportation without being very heavy to carry.
13 disc "extended bag" without significant gaps.
1 specialty disc maximum preferred. I don't like carrying discs which I don't throw frequently.


Discs I have been previously recommended but have not had the chance to try out:
Gateway Wizard - putt driving, supposedly better than my Voodoo?
Discraft ESP FLX Buzzz - has been recommended for me for wooded courses. Would probably replace either my Glow Z Buzzz or Z Comet?
Discraft Wasp - overstable midrange, supposedly better than my Titanium / Glow Z Buzzz?
Discmania C/D-line TD Rush - as a utility driver with dependable fade; either this or P-PD
Discmania P-line PD Freak - as a utility driver with dependable fade; either this or C/D-TD
Discmania S-line TD2 Fever - as a distance driver for someone with less than 100m distance
Latitude 64 Gold River - as a utility driver (I have previously tried Opto River - it had way too much fade for my liking)
MVP Neutron Volt - as a utility driver once my D improves a little (is this plastic as slippery as the slick MVP putter plastics? I sure hope not...)


Stuff I have disliked:
SS and SSS plastic. I loved how they felt in my hand, but I don't like their fly properties in putt drives as much as the Soft plastic.
E HPP plastic. I do not like how they feel in my hand.
Champion / C-line plastic (and to a lesser extent, Elite Z plastic). Too slippery when wet, and I play a lot on wet grass as-is.
MVP Medium putter plastic. Slick as heck -> same problem as with Champion / C-line/ Elite Z plastic, but MUCH worse.
Last edited by Karhumies on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:34 pm

Just found out that my bag has (had) a lot of similarity with Monocacy's bag. I have also in the past thrown 150 Star Teebird, ~155 Opto Diamond, 150 Champ Leopard, light Champ Banshee and some Ions. And I am currently throwing a 158 Star Valkyrie. Based on his latest additions, a 150s Innova Blizzard Krait ("MODERATELY OVERSTABLE DRIVER ... delivers a big fade when needed") or 150s Innova Blizzard Mamba ("DISTANCE DRIVER ... flies similar lines to my 153 Star Valkyrie, but longer. The glide is amazing.") might work also in my "extended bag".

The main difference between the two bags being me slowly moving on to heavier weights and ditching Ion -> Voodoo; Roc & Diamond & Banshee -> Buzzz in a variety of plastics; and trying out Teebird -> Valkyrie. Although if I had any DX Teebirds in the same weight as my current DX Valkyries (mid-160s), those would probably fly about the same distance (90 meters = 300 feet and improving) for me.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby JR » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:40 am

i don't see real wind beating discs in there. I have no idea about the Mamba but Vulcan and Air King(Pohjolan isäntä) might suit your long bomber role well. Neither fades a lot. Both compete well with the Krait that has too much fade even for a 120+m thrower.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:13 am

JR wrote:i don't see real wind beating discs in there.


True. I used to have a light Champion Banshee in my bag, but then I got some Buzzzes for those straight lines with fade in the end (windless). Buzzz won't work as well in a headwind as the Banshee did, though, that's for sure. I disliked switching from a midrange rim (Comet) into a driver rim (Banshee) for the same shot in windy conditions, which is why I dropped Banshee from my bag. I should probably try out the Z Glow and Titanium Buzzzes in a headwind before making choices about the possible inclusion of a Wasp. Also, I should try out a heavier (I currently have 171 S Valk) or Champion Valkyrie into a headwind and see if that works or not.

Also, while I have previously said that Valk and Teebird would probably have very similar D for me at the moment, Teebird would be much better out of the two in a headwind.

JR wrote:I have no idea about the Mamba but Vulcan and Air King(Pohjolan isäntä) might suit your long bomber role well. Neither fades a lot. Both compete well with the Krait that has too much fade even for a 120+m thrower.


Based on what I have heard, light weight Blizzard discs should float, so they would simultaneously fill the floating disc slot (Mamba especially). This would serve double duty in my bag, and would therefore be less marginal than the Starlite RR I currently have. I don't want to frequently hyzer flip max. D during rounds; I'd rather Comet or DX Valk for a control shot. With that being said, I might actually try a light weight Vulcan sometime, although the Speed 13 figure on the disc is...disheartening.

Based on what I have heard, Krait does fade a lot. Could very well be too much fade for me.

EDIT: Is the Mamba only out in Champion plastic, actually? Bugger, that does not float. Will stick with the Starlite RR then, I suppose, and look for a Lightning No.2 Driver or something for the floating slot.

-----------------------------------------------

Had some field practise.

167 Aerobie Epic was amazing as a tomahawk placement disc. Very similar to my previous 150 Champ leopard in flight paths, but a bit beefier. My OH is too short for the across water drives I need a floating disc for, though. Also doubles up as a trick overstable approach disc, so feels like it will fill my "Trick disc" slot.

147 Starlite Roadrunner is very understable unless thrown from a standstill. And even from a standstill, it's not that much longer (controllable distance) than the DX Valk but suffers more from the wind. As far uncontrollable distance, it's the longest disc I have. I guess I should try hyzer flipping it more, but that would require a wider practise field because that might get "out of bounds" in the beginning.

152 DX Dragon felt like a much shorter Starlite Roadrunner. Quite inconsistent flight paths. Does Starlite RR float? EDIT: No, it doesn't.

171 S-line TD Rush was moderately overstable for me. Very dependable fade. I was better at forearming this than the Valk. Could see some headwind drive duties at my arm speed, but then again I should try out my 171 S Valkyrie in a headwind as well (although Valks sure love tailwind).

170 Soft Banger-GT will try this out as my main putter. Love the feel of the plastic.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Monocacy » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:46 pm

Since you mentioned my bag, I probably owe you a few comments. :D

Blizzard Mamba replaced Valkyries in my bag, so you might find that carrying both creates overlap. Mambas can fly similar lines to Valks, other than perhaps your beat-up DX Valk. Mamba could also fill your “hyper max D” slot.

I think Blizzard discs have to be very light (sub-150) to float. Have you considered getting a stack of sacrificial DX discs instead for water shots?

Glow Z Buzzz thrown with a little hyzer should handle moderate headwinds pretty well. Does the Titanium Buzzz fly any differently than the Z? If not, carrying both might be overlap (caveat – I have not thrown the Ti Buzzz).

Also, how do you use the Pro-D Buzzz differently than your X Comet? Have you considered something like X Comet, Z Comet, Glow Z Buzzz for your midrange lineup?

It is nice to have a driver that you can throw into a headwind without worry. Krait might do the trick – I have not tested it in headwinds yet – but also consider something controllable like a Teebird or Eagle.

Your bag seems to be missing a super-overstable utility disc like a Banshee (unless the Epic fills this role – I have not thrown one).

Is your “headwind putter” for putts, approaches, or both? If for approaches, you might consider something like a Rhyno, Zone, or Gator, especially if you go without a super-overstable utility disc.

Good luck!
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:05 am

Monocacy wrote:Blizzard Mamba replaced Valkyries in my bag, so you might find that carrying both creates overlap. Mambas can fly similar lines to Valks, other than perhaps your beat-up DX Valk. Mamba could also fill your “hyper max D” slot.


I can't find any Blizzard Mambas from Finnish stores; only regular Champion plastic. And even then, it is difficult to find any light weights. But that disc would probably be nice on the Christmas wish list, anyway. :)

Monocacy wrote:I think Blizzard discs have to be very light (sub-150) to float. Have you considered getting a stack of sacrificial DX discs instead for water shots?


After losing a Pro-D Buzzz and a DX Teebird, I have decided to rule out that option for the time being and at least try out whether I could find a floating disc which would suit me.


Monocacy wrote:Glow Z Buzzz thrown with a little hyzer should handle moderate headwinds pretty well. Does the Titanium Buzzz fly any differently than the Z? If not, carrying both might be overlap (caveat – I have not thrown the Ti Buzzz).


Ti Buzzz has a much later and sharper fade, so they both would appear to have a purpose in the bag. However, with limited experience this is not the final say. Also, a Wasp/Hornet might replace one of the two eventually as a more overstable mid.

Monocacy wrote:Also, how do you use the Pro-D Buzzz differently than your X Comet? Have you considered something like X Comet, Z Comet, Glow Z Buzzz for your midrange lineup?


I have been using my Pro-D Buzz also for short approaches with predictable fade lately. X Comet fades less. Also, with small anhyzers over relatively long distances it's easier for me to throw Pro-D Buzz almost flat than try to control the precise angle with X Comet. But yeah, I should give that setup a go since I could use the Z Comet for those short approaches rather than Pro-D Buzz.

Monocacy wrote:It is nice to have a driver that you can throw into a headwind without worry. Krait might do the trick – I have not tested it in headwinds yet – but also consider something controllable like a Teebird or Eagle.


A DX Teebird should probably be fine. Too bad I just recently lost mine to...well..a water hazard. Which brings us back to the point of having a floating disc. :-/

Monocacy wrote:Your bag seems to be missing a super-overstable utility disc like a Banshee (unless the Epic fills this role – I have not thrown one).


Epic fills this role, but only for very short approaches. I should probably try out a Wasp or Hornet for that slot.


Monocacy wrote:Is your “headwind putter” for putts, approaches, or both? If for approaches, you might consider something like a Rhyno, Zone, or Gator, especially if you go without a super-overstable utility disc.


Mostly approaches, unless the headwind is really significant. Disliked the Rhyno rim, no experience of the others. Hoping to test out a 175 Wizard for this first.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby JR » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:32 pm

Wizard is an OK headwind putter but it fails in storm winds so if the Rhyno is unconfortable how about a Zone? The TD can take some headwind if it isn't the flippy kind instead of straight both of which exist in S-Lines. Blizzards float in under 140 gram weights. None of the discs in Blizzard are true wind beaters. Not even the overstable Destroyers or Bosses. For non headwind max D i'd try 13X Zero G Quasar. It has a nicer fade than the Vulcan and if you try a Vulcan it needs to be light too because it does have a hefty fade especially at your power but it will be pretty far once it kicks in. It is impossible to predict how it flies not knowing how much spin you can put on a disc.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:51 am

JR wrote:Wizard is an OK headwind putter but it fails in storm winds so if the Rhyno is unconfortable how about a Zone?


Will try to get a hold of a Zone for testing purposes, but with the recent blizzard over Helsinki, I believe this issue will probably be left unresolved over the winter season until spring.

JR wrote:The TD can take some headwind if it isn't the flippy kind instead of straight both of which exist in S-Lines.

That's actually true. I have a 170 C-line TD which flies very similar to my Valkyrie, except with more fade. More left-right movement has kept it out from my bag for the time being with the Finnish woods and all, but I could see it being more useful in the wind than the 171 Star Valkyrie I was thinking about earlier. Will need to test that disc out again in a headwind. Thanks for the tip! :)

JR wrote:Blizzards float in under 140 gram weights. None of the discs in Blizzard are true wind beaters. Not even the overstable Destroyers or Bosses. For non headwind max D i'd try 13X Zero G Quasar. It has a nicer fade than the Vulcan and if you try a Vulcan it needs to be light too because it does have a hefty fade especially at your power but it will be pretty far once it kicks in.

Will try out the Starlite RR a second time over the weekend. I am starting to like the idea that the D disc would be a standstill / bad footing disc, rather than something requiring a run-up. I have always been a finesse-minded player, I guess. Which is why I am so fond of the Comet. :)

JR wrote:It is impossible to predict how it flies not knowing how much spin you can put on a disc.

I would hazard a self-estimate of moderate speed, very very little spin. My background in han moo do has given me good arm speed from day 1 (relaxed mucles / avoid unnecessary arm muscle tension, late arm acceleration, etc.), but otherwise my technique needs to improve a lot.

My latest efforts have focused on
A) improving my grip. It is instinctive for me to keep my hand muscles loose for faster arm withdraw rather than a disc golf style follow-through when throwing punches...since a punch can miss, while a disc golf disc is always "hit" out from the hand. This has left me with a too loose grip of the disc prior to the moment of release, and I am missing a lot of potential power because of that.

B) improving my follow-through. It is instinctive for me to withdraw the arm like I was drawing back from a missed punch, rather than follow-through disc golf style. This forces me to adopt an unnatural-feeling "raising of the arm" (unnatural because it is not in my muscle memory yet). Will need to change my reachback style as well (from level -> rising up during the throw) to make this movement easier.
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby Karhumies » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:22 am

"Christmas wish list" after giving it some initial thoughts:

1) 170 Discraft ESP FLX Buzzz - FLX plastic for wooded courses
2) 170 Discraft ESP FLX or Elite Z Wasp - overstable mid
3) 170 Gateway Soft Magic - lighter putt-putter
(150 Innova Champion Mamba - if I am terribly unhappy with the Starlite Roadrunner)
(overstable putter - if I can find out one I like in time)
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Re: Bag revision for Christmas

Postby JR » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:24 am

I'm in Helsinki and i think i've seen you post on Tallaajat forum and am a member. The snow storm sucks. I agree with your analysis of focus areas for improvement.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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