Ok, go easy on me

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Ok, go easy on me

Postby Deuce » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:24 pm

This is my 2nd year playing, 1st year that I bought discs. I'm still learning what discs do what and whats good or bad as far as discs go.

Hows my bag look? any glaring holes to the ol pros out there? anything that I'm using that decidedly inferior to another disc?

Comments very much appreciated:)

Avenger Elite X 171g +1.5
FLX Predator ESP 171g +2.5
Stratus X 170 -1
Soft Magnet
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Postby Jsw » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:18 pm

If you include your throwing style, as well as your average driving distance, it will help people give you advice. Since a certain discs will perform vastly different depending on how well/hard they are thrown.

I'm not a Discraft Expert, so I'll let others give suggestions. But you might want to try out a more 'true' stable mid range, My buddy throws a stratus and if i recall correctly they are more of a fairway driver than a true mid. If you can make it work than go for it, but a true mid like a Buzzz or a Roc would probably be more controllable and versatile.
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Postby Grayson » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:54 pm

Distances and any other info on your game would be helpful for a more indepth critique, but I'll give you some input.

Your bag is a decent bare-bones bag. Even a hardcore minimalist would say you might need to add a disc or two, but you can cover all shots with the disc listed, it just depends on how well you know these discs. If you can make each of these discs do a couple different things, then you may not need to add many discs or any at all for a while, just depends on where your game's at.

The X Avenger is a fav of mine and is a great true stable driver that will get a little flippy with use. But it's a great all around driver. It you need a hard hooking hyzer though, it won't really do that well. But you've got a Pred for that, so above all keep the X Avenger, unless you can push it consistantly past 325ft or so. If you can't break 300ft most every time with the X Avenger, you should step down to a disc like the Z XL or Cyclone for your distance driving spot and really work to get these drivers farther and more accurate.

Even if you can put the X Avenger farther than 325 consistantly, the first type of disc I would suggest adding to you're bag is a stable control driver, like the aforementioned Z XL or Cyclone, or a Gazelle or Teebird from the Innova lineup.

If the FLX Pred is too much for you, then I suggest trying the X Predator or the ESP Avenger. They're a little less HSS and are great choices for weenie arms who need a meathooking overstable driver.

The X Stratus is an ok mid, it just depends on how accurate you are with it. I can throw a Z Buzzz farther than a Stratus, so maybe the mid being long won't be a problem, but the accuracy is where it's at for this slot. The buzzz will hold a more true line for me, and I can depend on it to hold that line even in a little bit of wind. My main midrange is a Z Wasp, it's great for hyzer approaches and can take some juice off the tee. It's not really hard to snap it to straight and get a slight fade and skip at the end as well.

If you're throwing the X Avenger well, maybe it's time to step up to a Surge, which will have a little more stabilty and is a great max d driver.
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Postby Beetard » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:30 pm

The value of fairway drivers cannot be overstated. They go far and are very forgiving- that is if you don't throw them exactly where you want, they'll still usually be close enough.

They're great for 300 foot holes whereI don't have the balls to put full power on a roc. I'm still not quite off axis torque free, so there's a good chance I will turn it over if I try to kill it.

Short shots where you need an S, narrow fairways where you can't afford big fade, a roller that hits your friends dog (That's a new one for me. The dog was fine. It was just a little escape overhand roller out of the brush)
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Postby GorillaTactics » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:02 pm

Beetard wrote:The value of fairway drivers cannot be overstated. They go far and are very forgiving- that is if you don't throw them exactly where you want, they'll still usually be close enough.

They're great for 300 foot holes whereI don't have the balls to put full power on a roc. I'm still not quite off axis torque free, so there's a good chance I will turn it over if I try to kill it.


Could not agree more.... I am at a very similar place in my game w/ my roc/fairway driver cusp, and I am so pumped to have my TL's when it's a bit too long for a controlled roc shot but too short for a full pull w/ a distance driver.
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Postby Deuce » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:30 am

Ok, I guess I'm a RHFHBH player? lol.

I started off last year throwing mostly tomahawks. I can throw a Frisbee like a champ but the tomahawk seemed to be the only shot I could control with a DG disc. Obviously that tough to have as your only throw lol, but any BH's I tried hooked way left before getting any distance.

At the end of last year I began to play with a FH shot and it started developing nicely at the end of the season. So during the winter I read up about discs some, watched all the DG lesson vids I could find online, and bought the discs listed above.

I've improved immensely this season, and now play competitively with guys who were crushing me last year. Over the last few months I've been asking question of the good BH guys I see on course (yup, im that anxious to learn I'll ask anyone for tips lol), and one gave me a couple tips I wasnt aware of (like keeping the nose down on a BH etc) and it made a big difference. my BH is starting to get some good distance now and im working on control there. My FH is solid now.

I'd say FH I'm consistently hit 320-340ish right now.
BH is probably more around 250ish that i can hit consistently (ive crushed a few a lot longer but wasnt really sure what i had done different to accomplish it)

Throwing a straight BH is still beyond me lol, but the break isnt as hard now and I get more distance before the break than I used to.
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Postby GorillaTactics » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:57 am

Your drivers are probably more suited to your forehand than a backhand, at least in the learning stages, as they're pretty overstable (read: fade to the left) for somebody with 250ft backhand range.

I'd recommend picking up a nice, controllable fairway driver - one that isn't a super high speed driver as it will be more controllable and easier to hone your form. Something like an XL, Leopard, Teebird, TL, Gazelle, etc. will teach you a lot about how different things affect the flight of your disc, and help you dial in your throwing form until you're throwing your BH as far as your FH. These discs are all slower than your Pred or Avenger, but that doesn't mean they don't fly far-just that they don't have to be moving as fast to take on their intended flight characteristics.
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Postby Deuce » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:05 am

anarak82 wrote:Even if you can put the X Avenger farther than 325 consistantly, the first type of disc I would suggest adding to you're bag is a stable control driver, like the aforementioned Z XL or Cyclone, or a Gazelle or Teebird from the Innova lineup.

and what types of situations would i want to use that for?
anarak82 wrote:If the FLX Pred is too much for you, then I suggest trying the X Predator or the ESP Avenger. They're a little less HSS and are great choices for weenie arms who need a meathooking overstable driver.
Sorry, HSS? I used to Tee of with the pred most of the time (FH) but that was before i had really tried the Avenger. Once i had it replaced the pred as my main driver.
anarak82 wrote:The X Stratus is an ok mid, it just depends on how accurate you are with it. I can throw a Z Buzzz farther than a Stratus, so maybe the mid being long won't be a problem, but the accuracy is where it's at for this slot. The buzzz will hold a more true line for me, and I can depend on it to hold that line even in a little bit of wind. My main midrange is a Z Wasp, it's great for hyzer approaches and can take some juice off the tee. It's not really hard to snap it to straight and get a slight fade and skip at the end as well.
I've been trying to figure out if the Stratus is even a disc I need or should carry, or if I'm even using it correctly or if I should try something else.

To be honest im not even sure how well I did when I ordered the discs as far at the stability ratings went, for the throws I have? I could have ordered the wrong thing and im working against myself for all I know lol
anarak82 wrote:If you're throwing the X Avenger well, maybe it's time to step up to a Surge, which will have a little more stabilty and is a great max d driver.


a friend of mine has a bag full of Surges, so that would be the next progression up for me to replace the Avenger?

Thank you vm for your input:D
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Postby Grayson » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:52 am

HSS= the resistance to turn at the first part of the flight. For your forehand hyzers that will be how much it fights turning left, for backhand how much it fight turning right.

As far as the fairway driver issue, like the XL or Cyclone, you should be throwing those for your backhand drives until you at least get them out to 300ft, preferably more than that. But the X Avenger and pred will probably be too much. I'd vote for the XL for your backhand drives and a cyclone or a gazelle for your forehand drives. You may want to force yourself not to throw your pred or avenger because you might get too tempted to use them off of every tee instead of learning some new discs. Sounds like you've got plenty of time/expierence with the avengers and preds, so you probably won't be learning as much with them for the time being. I'd say use the fairway drivers for all your driving purposes, backhand and forehand, till you learn them well, then put the pred, avenger, and maybe a surge back in the bag. At that point you'd use the fairway drivers on accuracy holes, for me, I use them for shots of about 250ft to 325ft depending on the hole.

I'd suggest picking up a z buzzz or z wasp and dropping the stratus if you're not too tied to the stratus. the stratus is a great disc to learn backhand rollers, but i've never really used them for anything else. go take at look at discraft's website and see how many of their pros carry a buzzz, they do for a reason. it's an awesome stable midrange that can be thrown on just about any line.

Plus I'd suggest you throw some rounds not using the forehand shot at all, and bring your backhand game up to speed. 250ft backhand is not where you want to be, and there is a little higher risk of injury when you use forehand shots. I wouldn't recommend using a forehand shot over 400ft unless you geoff bennett, or used to be a pitcher or some other kind of athlete.

so short form of my 2 cents:
1. Get an few fairway drivers (xl,cyclone, teebird, tl, leopard, gazelle)
2. drop the pred and avenger for a few rounds
3. get a new mid like a buzzz, wasp, or dx roc
4. force yourself to throw only backhand for a couple weeks
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:36 am

I'll echo:

The Magnet is a good putter. Make sure you keep pushing yourself further and further back with your Magnet. The farther you can throw it, the better.

You need a stable mid range. The obvious choices are Roc or Buzzz. Pick one, throw it often.

The Stratus is a tweener disc...halfway between a flippy mid and a flippy fairway driver. You can use it for turnover shots.

You need a stable fairway driver. Gazelle or Cyclone (avoid the Z Cyclone, but the D or X are great.) You will be able to learn how to control a driver and make it turn or hyzer based on what you do with either of these two.

Avoid the Predator until you develop more power. A Banshee or EXP1 will be better forehand discs for you right now.

Throw backhand as much as possible. Forehand is a very useful shot, but do not depend on it too much.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Postby sweeper » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:03 am

As another player with a weak (but improving) BH (280 consistantly, more than that on a good pull) I would say not to go the wasp route unless you are looking for something very stable for your BH. Buzz works better for me, but I have both in my bag. If I wanna go right, I use my FH. For a fairway driver I throw an assassin (again backhand). It breaks in quickly and fills the difference between your mids and drivers for us weaker arms.

Just giving my experience. Something from a guy around your level. I don't claim to know much about DG except its a lot of fun, and beating guys who throw 350 + but can't putt is funner! Except that they get down on themselves and that is sad.
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Postby Deuce » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:16 am

good feedback!

I've played football all my life (and still do as a semi pro player) and played baseball (3rd base) all through school, so I suspect thats partially why the FH comes more natural to me.

So you all seem to be of the same impression that the Strat isnt the most versatile disc lol (at least for me for now). Which kind of confirms my own thoughts on it.

Can someone explain why my avenger may be 'too much' and i should put it away for awhile and use a fairway driver? I didnt follow the logic on that one.

And I'll definitely try out a Roc or Buzzz. Other than the obvious stats stuff that I can see for myself online about the 2 discs, are there any major difference between the 2 I should be aware of before buying one?

and one last Q. I'm alittle lost on the what weight discs I should use, and why. I dont know if it matters (it prob doesnt since so much of this game is form rather strength) but Im 6'3' 225, so I guess I went with heavier weight classes thinking that a big guy should toss heavier discs lol. Are my weights off what they should be? and how do you know what weight range you should get for certain discs other than experience?

You guys are definitely helping! Ty again!
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:35 am

Deuce wrote:Can someone explain why my avenger may be 'too much' and i should put it away for awhile and use a fairway driver? I didnt follow the logic on that one.
As the discs get faster they have more distance potential. But there is a trade off as they are harder to control and more nose angle sensitive. At the D you are currently getting you should be able to work on your form and get a fairway driver to fly at least that far. It sounds like you have an athletic background so it is probably just form holding you back. It is easier to learn and gain confidence with the fairway drivers, and you really won't give up much D as you are not yet unlocking the potential of the Avenger anyway. Also with the fairway driver you can learn line shaping and learn how you can be in control of the disc VS letting it go and being at the mercy of where wind and aerodynamics want to take it. The big winged discs like the Avenger are really hard to control. Once you learn the beauty of the fairway driver, you will find that you rarely need the big winged discs and can save them for the big wide open shots where they have room to work. On the shots that are tight and require accuracy, you can avoid hitting that tree 20ft down the fairway and still get a nice 300ft + drive with the fairway driver.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Postby Grayson » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:42 am

Deuce wrote:good feedback!
Can someone explain why my avenger may be 'too much' and i should put it away for awhile and use a fairway driver? I didnt follow the logic on that one.


The Avenger needs at least about 325-350ft of power to make it fly like it's supposed to. if you can't get that consistantly you, you'll probably see the disc turn hard left on backhand shots, or have it stall out before it reaches the required flight speed. Try throwing it backhand and see what it does, my guess is that it'll either fade out left or stall out early, or you'll throw it of line to the right trying to get some distance out of it. When I throw my X Avenger, I put a pretty steep hyzer angle and it and aim to the left, it flips to flat and stays that way for the rest of the flight, sometimes fading slight left at the end, but not much, it's usually good for me backhand out 350ft, I throw a hyzer out to the left becuase after it's flipped to flat it's trailing slightly to the right, so I'm compensating to make it end up straight in front of me, but 350ft down the fairway. This is called a hyzer flip, and will be a great shot for you to practice with an XL, which is the disc I learned it with. The XL really should only take about 250ft of power to get it to flip to flat and glide a long ways.

As far as disc weights, i'd stick with something in the low 170s, and if you feel like they are too light and turning too far right or might not be too predictable in the, then give max weight a shot. Since you're already throwing 170s and 171s bumping up to max weight might not be too bad. For mids, I prefer them to be max weight, because I am not look for distance with these discs, mainly accuracy. A lighter disc will fly farther, but is a little less accurate do to wind suseptability and less stability.

but i'll shut up now and let others give you advice, you've heard waaaaay too much out of me. good luck 8)
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Postby Beetard » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:03 pm

You've gotten some good tips so far, but it seems like you need advice about the fundamentals of discs and throwing them. I myself learned a great deal about the fundamentals by reading the instructional articles located on the DGR main page.

Anything with a wide rim; any discs labeled "Distance driver" or "very long range driver" Like avengers, predators, surges are not what you should be throwing to learn backhand. The two reasons these type of discs are hooking way left is because they must be moving at a very high velocity to fly straight and you're probably throwing all hyzers; pullling from low to high.

Don't worry too much about the weight. Golf discs are all within 15grams of each other; 165 to 180g. The difference that weight makes is subtle. If you can't decide what disc you need to practice backhand after reading the articles, what you want to do is buy like 5 dx cobras. They're between a mid and a driver, straight flying when thrown with moderate power and have good glide. Hold the disc level and pull it chest-high in a line that is parallel to the ground. You'll get a nice straight flight.

Once you get the hang of these, try some fairway drivers.

Here's a link to Blake's disc selection article btw.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... disc.shtml
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