rate my bag

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rate my bag

Postby rodman20 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:23 pm

Fairley new to the game, (< 6 months) let me know if you guys see any gaps. I'm about a 50/50 sidearm & backhand driver. My backhand drives are around 285-300 with accuracy and sidearm 300-325.

1. Stable Control Drivers (backhand)
Star Sidewinder
Elite Z XS

2. Distance Drivers
Forehand (xcaliber)
Backhand (valkyre)

3. Understable Driver
Beat dx teebird (backhand)
Beat Pro destroyer (forehand)

4. Moderately Overstable Driver
dont have one? maybe my bashee?

5. Very Overstable Driver (backhand)
Champ wriath (also use for some sidearms as well as overhaed shots)

Mids:
elite z buzz (dead straight to understable)
Star cro (stable to slightly overstable)
Demon (very overstable)


Putters:
Soft Wizards for putting
Firm wizard for driving and upshots.

Right now I am messing around with a pro classic roc and a champion banshee to see if they have a spot in my bag. Thanks for your comments.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby peppermack » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:57 pm

I would not consider a Wraith a very overstable driver, it is moderately stable at best, the Xcal would somewhat fit into that category but a Monster, Max, or Pred for sure would. I think overall your bag looks ok, but I am not a long time player like a lot of the others on the site. I like the Cro and buzzz a lot myself, you might consider a Roc (which you are trying as I see), they are hard to beat. I use a wizard for a putter to so I am down with that. You should try a Avenger or something like that for your moderately overstable driver, they have great glide and fly a good line.You might try something a little slower for you FH distance driver like a teerex or something at that speed, at only 300-325 you may not be getting the Xcal to do what it is made to. I throw FH about 425 and this is about where a Xcal starts to perform for you. I love the destroyers, I only throw the star though because I find the pro too flippy.
S PD, Firebird, KC Pro/Champ Gazelle, Buzz, Rhyno, ESP Drone, Ion
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Beetard » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:42 pm

1. Your stable control drivers seem a little too fast and overstable. You'd probably get more control and less fade out of a base plastic teebird, eagle, gazelle, or cyclone. Both birds start out overstable and need some beating in before you can really try to shape lines with them. Gazelles need a little banging up. Not sure about 'clones.

2.Valk for D, good choice. Forehand D, see if you can use the valk, or at least a wraith. Xcals are stupidly overstable.

3.Get some hyzer on the TB and it should be a flip to flat and go straight driver.
I likes a beat gazelle for my understable driver.

FH understable, maybe a dx beast

4.Banshees are more like super overstable.

5. Well if you mean something you can't usually turn over, a champ wraith works I guess, but if you want a disc that's virtually immune to 30 mph headwinds, you want a predator. Those things love headwinds. I think I sometimes get more D throwing a pred into a stiff headwind than I do throwing them in calm air.

Mids 'ight.

Putters rock on!
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Working Stiff » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:12 pm

The Sidewinder and XS to me are odd choices for a "control driver." I'll wax a little odd and unconventional here where nobody will notice...

Discs that are rendered obsolete by technology are often re-marketed for another purpose. Disc like the XD that were designed for distance in the mid 80's exist today as putters. The first time I noticed this was with the 1st generation drivers like the Stingray and Eclipse. After they were rendered obsolete as max D discs, they were repackaged as "control" drivers used for accuracy and rollers and a lot of people kept them in their bag specifically for those shots. As the wide rimmed discs became the distance discs de jour, the Stingray was downgraded again...now it's a mid! The former distance discs like TeeBirds and Gazelles became re-packaged as "control" or "fairway" drivers, and we are all pretty comfortable with keeping a TeeBird or Gazelle in the bag for that purpose. Never mind that a bunch of people felt they needed a more accurate "control" driver when these discs where the Max D drivers, they are the accuracy kings now because...well, because Innova says so, and who are we to argue with Innova? So the Speed 6 and 7 discs have a marketing niche we all generally accept, which was created when the Speed 9 and 10 discs came out.

Welcome to Speed 13.

Now that we are at Speed 13, it occurs to me that none of the companies have come up with a marketing reason for you to continue to carry a Speed 9 or 10 discs if you are using a Destroyer and a Max as your drivers. It seems to me that somebody throwing a Destroyer and a Max could probably justify calling an Orc their "control" driver. We will jump up and down and say it is too fast because to us a "control" driver is narrowly defined as a Speed 6 or 7 disc. Really, a "control" driver is just a discs that should be slower and more accurate than your Max D disc, and if your Max D disc is a Boss and Orc is a slower, more accurate disc.

In other words, the use of a disc changes over time. What was once a distance disc becomes a control driver and then a mid range. I'm not sure if the Speed 6 & 7 discs will magically retain their "Fairway driver" status, or if one day we will log on to the Innova site and see that the line has moved up and that the Valkyrie, Sidewinder and Firebird are suddenly "Fairway Drivers." If that happens, then I'm sure nobody will argue with the Sidewinder as a control driver because...well, because Innova says so, and who are we to argue with Innova?

But until then...the Sidewinder is too fast for your control driver. Get another TeeBird! :P
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby rodman20 » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:47 am

thanks for the imput guys, keep it comming. Yea i figured i really need to take a look at my bag if i wanted more consistancy and a good idea of what disc I needed for each shoot instead of having 20+ disc and flipping through them and saying "hey this should work". I do have an esp surge, could that be used to replace my wriath as my overstable driver? Also for my control driver what type of plastic of Teebird should i get? stick with dx or something more durable?
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Re: rate my bag

Postby ferretdance03 » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:33 am

rodman20 wrote: ... esp surge, could that be used to replace my wriath as my overstable driver?
No. The Surge and Wraith are pretty much interchangeable. For overstable, you want something like a Predator, Firebird or Banshee.

rodman20 wrote: Also for my control driver what type of plastic of Teebird should i get? stick with dx or something more durable?
Most would say DX. I would probably agree, if you're throwing heavy weights. If you want premium plastic you could drop down to mid/low 160's.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Beetard » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:11 pm

DX teebirds for certain. They are always made of good, hard plastic that is durable and keeps its shape. They are one of the tougher dx drivers out there. You can get months of use out of a single teebird. dx plastic is the one that gives you the flight characteristics teebirds are famous for. A nice 170 gram TB should serve you well. It'll fly farther and straighter with use.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby adidadg » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:06 am

Definitley DX for the teebird, they just fly nicer. The ones I am throwing actually have more HSS than my 12X champion TB, and less LSS. I was pretty disapointed with the Champion one i got.

And yeah it seems kind of odd that your backhand control drivers are longer discs than your backhand distance driver.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby garublador » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:31 am

Working Stiff wrote: Really, a "control" driver is just a discs that should be slower and more accurate than your Max D disc, and if your Max D disc is a Boss and Orc is a slower, more accurate disc.
I disagree with that. Most of what are considered control drivers on this board are discs that are either really straight while still getting near max golf distance or are high speed understable while still having a predictable fade. The only difference between them, mids and distance drivers isn't just speed and distance potential.

While you are right that the apparent roles of discs have changed over the years, I'm not sure that's a trend that will continue. I just don't think disc technology had really filled out all of the bag spots the average player can control until this decade. I'll bet that if you were able to go back and find the average distance the semi-serious player threw from when disc golf started until now you'd see that it increased every time a new set of discs came out up until people were throwing 350' or so and then it has stayed there. I'd guess that's around when the Teebird/Eagle came out. At that point putters and mids were pretty well figured out. Not a whole lot has changed there. The Roc has never changed to a putter and the Aviar hasn't become obsolete. Since then, they've been coming out with faster discs that the really good throwers would call distance drivers (Valk, XS, Viking, ect) and even faster discs that don't really benefit the regular guys, but do help those that throw really far. So, while Avery Jenkins may get different uses from an Orc and a Boss, I'm not sure Joe Intermediate will, but he will see the difference between an Orc and an Eagle.

I think what I'm saying is somewhat supported by Dave D.'s idea to limit rim width. It's getting to where disc innovations are more of an arms race than a race to the moon. There's less and less of a point in making faster discs. The disc companies can start perfecting each speed category rather than trying to invent new ones.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Beetard » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:56 pm

Well said. I wanna see some more speed 8 and 9 drivers come out.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Working Stiff » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:20 am

garublador wrote:
Working Stiff wrote: Really, a "control" driver is just a discs that should be slower and more accurate than your Max D disc, and if your Max D disc is a Boss and Orc is a slower, more accurate disc.
I disagree with that. Most of what are considered control drivers on this board are discs that are either really straight while still getting near max golf distance or are high speed understable while still having a predictable fade. The only difference between them, mids and distance drivers isn't just speed and distance potential.

While you are right that the apparent roles of discs have changed over the years, I'm not sure that's a trend that will continue. I just don't think disc technology had really filled out all of the bag spots the average player can control until this decade. I'll bet that if you were able to go back and find the average distance the semi-serious player threw from when disc golf started until now you'd see that it increased every time a new set of discs came out up until people were throwing 350' or so and then it has stayed there. I'd guess that's around when the Teebird/Eagle came out. At that point putters and mids were pretty well figured out. Not a whole lot has changed there. The Roc has never changed to a putter and the Aviar hasn't become obsolete. Since then, they've been coming out with faster discs that the really good throwers would call distance drivers (Valk, XS, Viking, ect) and even faster discs that don't really benefit the regular guys, but do help those that throw really far. So, while Avery Jenkins may get different uses from an Orc and a Boss, I'm not sure Joe Intermediate will, but he will see the difference between an Orc and an Eagle.

I think what I'm saying is somewhat supported by Dave D.'s idea to limit rim width. It's getting to where disc innovations are more of an arms race than a race to the moon. There's less and less of a point in making faster discs. The disc companies can start perfecting each speed category rather than trying to invent new ones.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, but I like these pointless conversations so I'm going to continue to jack the thread of this poor guy who just wanted disc advise.

I guess I was assuming that the player using the Destroyer as his distance disc could actually throw it, and that for THAT player an Orc/Starfire type disc would be a straighter, slower compliment to his driver. For the guys lugging around Destroyers who can't throw them any father than an Orc...well, it's gonna take a lot more than a good fairway driver to help them.

So since in the great marketing scheme of things a manufacturer would assume we would not lug around a Destroyer if we could not throw it and we are seeing a significant distance difference between a "fairway" disc like a TeeBird and our Destroyer, I would think there would be a marketing push to get guys carrying a Speed 12 distance driver and a Speed 7 fairway driver to have a Speed 9 or 10 disc as an in-between, sort of a long fairway driver. We talk about bag set-ups all the time, and I don't remember anybody ever saying "You need something to split the distance between your Wraith and your Eagle." Then again, maybe we all assume that the guy probably can't really throw that Wraith and the distance between it and his Eagle isn't very far. :lol:

As far as the Wing War goes, there was a real lack of leadership shown by the PDGA in that case. Dave Dunipace threw out the 10% idea a long time ago, which would have limited wings to 2.1 cm. The march to 21.1 cm took quite a few years, so it's not like anyone could say they thought the manufacturers would stop themselves. I think everybody knew a rule was going to have to be passed, but no one had the will to do it. Quest actually did the PDGA a favor with the Turbo-Putt, because that finally got people to support Tech Standard revisions. If not for that, I wonder if the PDGA would have ever gotten around to limiting the wings.

Anyway, it's just sort of thinking out loud. I really don't have a point, which will come as no surprise to people who regularly read my posts.

Here is something funny I noticed...back in the day Innova marketing used to advertise the Panther as a mid-range disc and the Cobra and Stingray as drivers. Now the Cobra and Stingray are marketed as Speed 4 mid-ranges, and the Panther is a Speed 5 mid-range. Hmmm...
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: rate my bag

Postby Working Stiff » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:32 am

Beetard wrote:Well said. I wanna see some more speed 8 and 9 drivers come out.
I've always wondered what was wrong with Speed 8. Innova skipped a whole speed (unless you count the Dragon and Archangel, which I don't!) I'm not sure why they skipped it. Discraft has the Reaper, Talon and XS...all of those would be Speed 8 if Discraft discs had speeds.

Gateway actually has released a disc like this in the last year, as the Assassin is a Speed 9 disc. I heard a rumor that they were working on a smaller winged version of the Assassin, which would be even slower.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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