New vid after working on right pec drill

[bcsst26]

I think BW's only point is that maybe this "linear pull" constraint is robbing people of power, and that we should drop the idea to see what happens. Of course this isn't orthodox advice, but I for one am going to try it!

Yes, you got it.

The more I think about it, there is no "J" at all.

The arm swings to the inside, down the line, back to the inside, just like any other athletic motion... So it is really a a flattened "C".

I messed around with this a little yesterday and have to say I am encouraged by the results. When trying to reach straight back and pull on a straight line I could do it but at times I almost felt like I was jamming myself or had to use to much arm to pull into my chest. I think that this happened when I reached back and was actually on the outside of the line so I was trying to go outside to inside which isn't efficient. When things went smooth reaching straight back I was probably right on line the whole time. Well yesterday I started my pull inside of the line. I felt like I could rotate faster and get the disc close to my chest a lot easier. As for spraying or not hitting my line at the beginning I was a little off but by the end of my session this wasn't a problem. From the right pec out everything was pretty much feeling the same. My last two throws of the day were like yeah that is it. Rotation felt great and I could feel some great snap. We will see how it goes. Hopefully I can hit the practice field tonight.

[Bradley Walker]

I messed around with this a little yesterday and have to say I am encouraged by the results. When trying to reach straight back and pull on a straight line I could do it but at times I almost felt like I was jamming myself or had to use to much arm to pull into my chest. I think that this happened when I reached back and was actually on the outside of the line so I was trying to go outside to inside which isn't efficient.

Man, you GOT IT!!!

That is EXACTLY what I found.

Now look at Barry and tell me he does not look outside the line and jammed...

[bcsst26]

Yeah looking at Barry in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg it does look like he is jammed. It seems like to me that he uses some force to get the disc in, jams himself and then uses even more force to get out of the jam. Were as someone like me I jam myself and don't have enough juice or just not enough knowledge to get out of it. I also checked out Justin in that video and going from the inside out like him is so fluid. No effort at all to get the disc in to the chest. I forget the first guy but I think he jams a little not as bad as Barry but some. Have you noticed anyone else off hand that seems to be going from the inside out?

[black udder]

So are you talking about a full bent elbow? Slight bent elbow? In order to pull inside, you'd have to be bent elbow, right?

And, BW, you're still talking about the tight to the chest as the disc comes through, right?

BW - look at the Climo video Blake has here and tell me if he's fitting your thought. To me, he's going straight back and through, but it's not a line you can put a level on, there's a slight bend.

[Bradley Walker]

So are you talking about a full bent elbow? Slight bent elbow? In order to pull inside, you'd have to be bent elbow, right?

And, BW, you're still talking about the tight to the chest as the disc comes through, right?

BW - look at the Climo video Blake has here and tell me if he's fitting your thought. To me, he's going straight back and through, but it's not a line you can put a level on, there's a slight bend.

Bent elbow. Let the disc follow the path of the shoulder as it ROTATES.
Fire shoulders back to square. Pull close (the flat spot). You have now changed rotary momentum.
Uncock elbow down the line. Rotary momentum transfers to linear momentum.
Arm goes back to inside.

[black udder]

So are you talking about a full bent elbow? Slight bent elbow? In order to pull inside, you'd have to be bent elbow, right?

And, BW, you're still talking about the tight to the chest as the disc comes through, right?

BW - look at the Climo video Blake has here and tell me if he's fitting your thought. To me, he's going straight back and through, but it's not a line you can put a level on, there's a slight bend.

Bent elbow. Let the disc follow the path of the shoulder as it ROTATES.
Fire shoulders back to square. Pull close (the flat spot). You have now changed rotary momentum.
Uncock elbow down the line. Rotary momentum transfers to linear momentum.
Arm goes back to inside.

I think we are talking about the same thing then.

[JR]

I think BW's only point is that maybe this "linear pull" constraint is robbing people of power, and that we should drop the idea to see what happens. Of course this isn't orthodox advice, but I for one am going to try it!

Yes, you got it.

The more I think about it, there is no "J" at all.

The arm swings to the inside, down the line, back to the inside, just like any other athletic motion... So it is really a a flattened "C".

This is for a bent elbow form. And the flattened C is the path that the hand takes from farthest point of reach back through the release to follow through.

To not have the discussion being simple I assume that having the disc inside the line means keeping the disc as close to your body as possible. Chris Max Voigt said, I think, that because the muscles work best when they are near the neutral position of the movement range he pulls from the reach back far away from the body to close to the chest and then again away from the body. If I understood the flattened C description correctly Chris suggests approximate opposite to the arm pull until the release and then arcing the hand similarly.

[Blake_T]

the problem that is happening here is that people are debating the wrong crap.

Brad is describing correctly what is happening. most others are so focused on non-factors that it clouds the interpretation of what he's saying.

i've said a kabillion times that slow motion video is only useful for body positions. all of the little timing intricacies that make up the "secret" of snap can't be seen in slow motion. most of these things are incidental or should only fire when timing dictates it to.

the key summary of what brad is saying is that you don't have to pull in a straight line to get the right outcome. there's only a narrow window of time where things have to be moving in a straight line, and as long as it happens in that window it doesn't matter what happens around that window.

as for the J path, it becomes super evident if you watch sidearm throwing. the j path can be seen when watching video of someone like geoff bennett. the thing with angular velocity and angular momentum is that it's HUGE when compared to the actual speed you generate in a linear direction. the backhand has it too, it's just harder to see, especially when people focus on too many other things.

if you want to pick out anything from slow motion videos of backhand throws look at how far they get their elbow back, how close the disc is to the body when it passes the right pec, and how far in front of them the disc is when it leaves. full speed video should be used to watch the timing of those points. the disc is accelerating from the right pec forward and is relaxed from beyond the left shoulder to the right pec.

Aaron: in your vid you appear a bit stiff. not wild, but your power doesn't appear focused. seems like you were trying to kill it but the timing was off. i also noticed you really weren't digging your pivot. 60% in, 100% out.

[JR]

There's another benefit to high speed videos other than getting the positions right if we won't take things to measuring power generation of different body parts at different times. That is time resolution which is useful for seeing the exact same thing Blake is talking of. Timing. The benefits can be reaped by stopping a throw in mid way and trying to remember how fast a body part or the thrower moved prior to that and then playing back the rest of the throw or if one is fast and lucky enough and the computer won't lag the restarted video you can see how much faster the observed object moved in the latter part of the throw. Iterating this with the same video can pin point where exactly when and where the observed part started to accelerate and by how much.

Beside timing high speed video played back slowed down has the advantage of spotting form errors. The higher the frame rate while seeing the object well enough the better the clues about early releases, slip outs, wrist extension, disc pivot etc. I mean lack thereof for wrist extension and disc pivot. The reality for those is best seen at full speed but man that's hard. I'm not good enough at that yet.

[Bradley Walker]

the problem that is happening here is that people are debating the wrong crap.

Brad is describing correctly what is happening. most others are so focused on non-factors that it clouds the interpretation of what he's saying.

i've said a kabillion times that slow motion video is only useful for body positions.

I agree.

Of note in this discussion (for Aaron) is this front foot plant orientation. I do believe this rotation back of the upper body coupled with the "stand up" on the X step foot, to this land on the lead foot is critical (both positionally and timing wise).

The relationship of these positions does set up the late timing.

If the hip is to close properly and stay closed late into the throw, the foot must land "in plane" with the hip, knee, and foot.

PS: I am far from mastering this, but working on these two positions (outlined by the two frames from the Justin Bunnell video) has made a drastic change in my WORST POSITIONS. This has been very hard form me, but landing the foot in the correct orientation is the beginning to fixing the lower body positions into and through the hit. This is critical. The harder one can "brace" for the hit, the harder one can hit it.

[black udder]

if you want to pick out anything from slow motion videos of backhand throws look at how far they get their elbow back, how close the disc is to the body when it passes the right pec, and how far in front of them the disc is when it leaves. full speed video should be used to watch the timing of those points. the disc is accelerating from the right pec forward and is relaxed from beyond the left shoulder to the right pec.

This was my biggest discovery and what I've been talking about. I honestly hadn't thought much about the reach back other than you have to do it as far as is comfortable and balanced. Me, I reach straight back because I thought it would be easier to aim - straight back, straight out the front.

[black udder]

okay - here's a snapshot of what I'm talking about. The disc is just coming out. This shot appears to me to be a little early, not a lot mind you, just a little. I was thinking that the disc should be further towards the center of his chest at release, thus, youI can't see if he's weight forward or not.

BW - what's your take? Right on target? Early?

Blake?



Here are some other shots. Ken appears to be a little further around on both these shots when the disc comes out.




And here you can see how tight the disc is to Avery's chest as he comes through the chest area:


Then here, he still has the disc in his hand (it comes out in the next frame), but Aaron's throw seems to have left already.


These shots are a little old, but I don't have any other video at hand.

[Aaron_D]

you guys are radically awesome!

[black udder]

you guys are radically awesome!

Some might call it OCD. My wife calls it that f*#@% disc s*$@#. Each to our own

[Bradley Walker]

The reason that is happening with the disc not tucking in close and releasing late is because of the flaw I described.

Aaron starts his pull to soon due to planting too open. There is a portion of the throw where you need to drive "into yourself" THEN out.

Justin: Plant, rotate in and pull tight to the chest, fire open while extending lower arm. Three parts.

Aaron: Plants and fires open while extending lower arm. Two parts.

That is why I posted the video at the points I described, and BU is right on. I think it is a combination of "where" and "when". Positions and timing.