Critique Brothers Drives

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Critique Brothers Drives

Postby JNick916 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:04 pm

Somebody critique our forms for us. We're all brothers who've been playing for almost two years. We all compete at about the same level. It's anybody's game from day to day. Dillon usually drives the furthest. He can reach 450' on a good day. Colin and Jordan average about 350'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTycFX4KJzA - Jordan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIpgA9I7nI - Colin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrmPaGfOGhw - Dillon
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby JR » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:12 pm

JNick916 wrote:Somebody critique our forms for us. We're all brothers who've been playing for almost two years. We all compete at about the same level. It's anybody's game from day to day. Dillon usually drives the furthest. He can reach 450' on a good day. Colin and Jordan average about 350'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTycFX4KJzA - Jordan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIpgA9I7nI - Colin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrmPaGfOGhw - Dillon


Colin has about the right knee bend angles that the others could benefit from. Dillon leads in getting the disc closest to his chest which has a serious impact when improved for the others but Dillon too has a bit of improvement left in this matter. Dillon also leads in getting the elbow out the farthest which bends the elbow for the greatest amount of snap and he too could still get his elbow out a couple of inches more.

Each of you had the arm pull start moderately which is nice but each of you also started to pull quickly way too early and you're losing serious distance there. Colin had variations between throws and his latest onset of quick acceleration was half decent. But each of you could really benefit from waiting 8-12" longer until starting to pull quickly with the arm.

Each of you was starting to move too fast with the leg work. You hadn't any acceleration left when the disc rips out. More importantly probably your right legs weren't able to lock into place prior to the hit so you weren't fully pivoting around with your right leg but flying forward from the tee. Slowing down the first two steps of the x or shuffle step should help along with tightening the right legs fully after the plant. That also helps with getting the weight even more forward which to me seems about 2-3" too little for each of you with the heart as the measuring point. Getting it over the right knee in back to forward direction is gonna help some.

Each of you plants the right leg left of the running direction which sets your body up for an anhyzer as does running from the rear right towards the center of the front tee. Your arm plane is hyzer however.

Jordan lacks the most of you in utilizing the hips for power generation. Colin has some power from the hips but he's too eager and generates power too early everywhere and I bet he's inputting the most power at the beginning of each motion and fading away at the end. Dillon has the latest onset of the leg and hip twists and that explains a lot of the distance difference between you. He does get some power out of his hips twisting but despite leading the pack in this regard he still he could twist his hips more explosively.

As a pre flight check list and for field practicing I think you should first do stop motions watching each other and then trying to get into the following position while throwing. Standing on the tee right side facing the target eyes and navel pointing 90 degrees left of the target pull the disc to touch the right pec (obviously not while throwing) raise and point the right elbow at the target. This is a bit too late to start turning toward the target and if the momentum of the elbow moving toward the target isn't directed into the elbow chopping open and the shoulders turning you're risking injury to the shoulder. After 8 months my anterior deltoid is a bit sore still after throwing or working or working out hard. From this position you really should kick hard with the left leg and getting the left knee straight and weight forward and pivoting around the right leg and twisting super fast(not hard bulging of the stomach muscles) to face the target as the elbow is straight and the disc pivots and rips.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby Aaron_D » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:25 pm

everyone copy dillon :)
My Drive-> http://www.youtube.com/user/CpJ123?feature=mhw5#p/u/0/OWX_jHYB4bg

Wizard * Roc * JLS * SOLF * Wraith * Predator
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby JNick916 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:21 pm

Haha, Dillon will be glad to hear that, Aaron. He idolizes you.

JR - So keep the disc close, keep the elbow out, accelerate through the hit later, slow the leg work, lead with the hips? Basically what you're saying, right?
I have a few other questions-
On this accelerating through the hit later thing, I've heard that I should try to keep my wrist extended as long as possible until it kind of cocks back on its own right before the release. Is that right?
What are stop motions?
Your tips on field practice sound like the Dan Beato video. Is that kind of what you're talking about?


Here are some new videos that we shot today. I added some slow motion, so maybe you'll be able to see things better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZqCsXcQxQw - on the last (4th) drive I really focused on trying to slow my leg work down and accelerate later in the hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P06qJjpo3II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfndg_Jxxy4
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:24 am

JNick916 wrote:Haha, Dillon will be glad to hear that, Aaron. He idolizes you.


Don't say stuff like that...Aaron is already getting an ego!! :wink:
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:43 am

Dillon has lot of seriously good stuff.

-His pull cocks his elbow.

-He brings the disc in close to his chest.

-He extends to the apex of the wrist snap as good as anyone I have seen post for review on DGR. His wrist is the other side of the disc for a foot beyond his chest (closer to the target). When he hits the end of arm travel, the wrist unloads as result of forward motion. His powerful wrist extension, as a result, is effortless. This is due to the fact that he uncocks the disc down the line of his arm (as a unfolding whip) keeping his hand on the other side of the disc as long as possible.

-His hit focus is forward not off to the side. In other words, his pull is linear and close to his body focused to a point point 2 feet towards the target. Heck, look at his pre-shot primer, he is holding the disc at full extension, and then he simply coils and goes through that spot.

***NOTICE****
Everyone look at this follow throw. He is literally thrown forward by his own disc momentum. That follow through is not result of MOVING forward, his back foot is THROWN forward by hitting PAST the length of his own arm.

The ONLY reason his arm swings out hard to the right is that he is coupling his arm and shoulder swing to his uncurling wrist that unsnaps at the forward apex.

I believe this is an discussed fundamental.
***NOTICE****

-I love this body motion. Right down the line. Nothing is wasted.

He will needs to start to understand the elements of each one of these things to improve. Then all he needs to do is do each even better.

Actually, I think Dillon throws like I would teach. Balck Uddder and I have been discussing this exact action on the Masterbeato thread.

He might actually achieve more power if he pulls slower and gets the disc cocked even more forward, focusing then on accelerating from the pec to the apex. Other than that, I am not sure I would mess with much... I can see how he is throwing over 400'. If he were an adult he might be throwing 500' :D plus.
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:17 am

Jordan has good forward extension.

He never gets the disc close enough or his elbow forward enough to really explode the disc forward. His arm swing is very constant speed.

Take this good forward extension with his good wrist placement at the apex and couple it with a tight, elbow forward pull, and will be dramatic. The trick is that there must both. You have to add the new elbow forward element without losing the good forward extension.
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Re: Critique Brothers Drives

Postby JR » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:28 am

JNick916 wrote:Haha, Dillon will be glad to hear that, Aaron. He idolizes you.

JR - So keep the disc close, keep the elbow out, accelerate through the hit later, slow the leg work, lead with the hips? Basically what you're saying, right?
I have a few other questions-
On this accelerating through the hit later thing, I've heard that I should try to keep my wrist extended as long as possible until it kind of cocks back on its own right before the release. Is that right?
What are stop motions?
Your tips on field practice sound like the Dan Beato video. Is that kind of what you're talking about?


Here are some new videos that we shot today. I added some slow motion, so maybe you'll be able to see things better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZqCsXcQxQw - on the last (4th) drive I really focused on trying to slow my leg work down and accelerate later in the hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P06qJjpo3II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfndg_Jxxy4


What Bradley wrote is of supreme importance. Especially not letting Aaron's head swell and explode :-P

I'd say first lead with the hips and after it starts twisting brings the elbow forward then lead with it but Dillon already does this quite well so just look at him.

I'd say not keeping the elbow out throughout the throw but more like keeping the elbow close to the chest once near the reach back position and getting it far in front of the right side toward the target before leg pivot and hip twisting along with shoulder turn.

If you keep your wrist straight as long as possible before leading with the elbow and chopping the elbow open allows you to pull closer to the chest than cocking the wrist back when it's by the right pec or worse earlier. But only if you grip at 2 o'clock. You can get the thing that Bradley and prior to him Chris Voigt talked of by gripping the disc at 10-11 o'clock for better wrist extension. Chris mentioned another advantage to this grip position that Bradley wrote of in some other post a few days ago. When the disc starts away from your body, comes close to the chest passing it and ends up far toward the target at the hit you have your arm muscles working at their most powerful points early and late in the throw. Early max power helps in cocking the arm muscles tighter plyometrically when the elbow is as far out as possible and late in the throw again is helped by the ability to generate great late acceleration. Out of the two ways I think if both are used to maximum 10-11 o'clock grip has much more potential. Unfortunately for me I haven't trained that a lot at all and am far from being good at it at the moment. It's something I'll have to train for eventually. Sucks to be injured and having to baby the throwing arm with the less taxing 2 o'clock grip. Remember that with both ways the disc should be moving as much on a straight line from beginning to end as possible and you're fine.

Stop motion means that you literally strike a pose and staying in place of any part of the throwing motion that you want to illustrate and want analyzed by yourself from a mirror and/or by your brothers.

We're all students of Blake so yes very much what Dan talks of and shows in his video.

Please PLEASE don't keep your legs as flat footed as you're doing now to save you ankles and pivoting faster allowing more generated power to move to the disc. Be prepared to having everything happening faster with near tip toeing or heel pivot if you prefer that. I suggest trying both ways to see which works best for you.

Another important thing I noticed that makes things happen faster giving more speed to the disc and perhaps some more spin too definitely dropping the apexes of flights is what I often struggle with. You guys are all leaning back a lot in the shuffle or x steps because you move the leg so far forward and exaggerate it with tilting backward with the upper body. This allows more time to think and control the body and monitor what you do. Unfortunately it takes olympic athlete level of left leg power to push fast and far enough to be weight forward at the hit without losing too much power. It seems that neither I or you can pull it off. Therefore we need to limit the left leg second step length focusing on staying upright and leaning forward from there along with a hefty left leg push. On some throws in the new vids you guys had too long plant steps and too straight knees too which doubled the troubles of being weight back. You looked too familiar because I seem to be reverting back to this all the time. This is especially hurtful to golf distance if you use Bosses or other fast drivers on low line drives.

You guys need to seriously increase the range of motion of the hips turning to the right. It's entirely possibile to turn 15-20 degrees more to the right most of that happening before the hit. You're bleeding in power generation and D by underutilizing the hips. You do get hip turn in the reach back turning to the left but you should be able to turn more than close to neutral position (like you're doing now) and stopping there.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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