its about time...

[readysetstab]

i've been wanting to get a video on here for a long time now. unfortunately, when i really needed the help i didn't have a camcorder. i'm doing a little better now. distance in the 400'-420' area as long as i don't eff something up and i've been pretty accurate lately. I'm just looking for anything that you can spot that might help more. its been a long time since i've really had a big break through. any advice that can improve my form would be appreciated.

first throw: somewhat stable wraith. thrown relatively flat and straight.
second throw: flippy wraith. big hyzer flip.
third throw: lightly beat wraith. thrown relatively flat with a bit of turn.

the second and third throws landed within about 5 ft of one another and the first one was maybe 25 ft to the left of them. here 'tis:

http://s255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/DaOutaSpace/?action=view&current=Patthrows.flv


and a friend of mine wanted to get some advice,so i took some video of his throws as well. i've been helping him along a bit the last month or so and he's actually doing a lot better than before. in this video, for some reason he decided to throw a few hyzers and didn't even put much into them, so i don't know how well it actually demonstrates his form. anyway, if you have advice for him i'll pass it along. here is his video:

http://s255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/DaOutaSpace/?action=view&current=Hankthrows.flv

enjoy the commentary
thanks!

[JR]

Both of you need to move weight forward a lot. There's some room to bring the disc closer to the chest for both of you. Anny steps and not annying the arm. Perhaps keeping the arm at the shoulder level would help with throwing so high that it limits D. Elbow forward is getting there but a little more would be better. Pat has some leg push and Hank doesn't. Both could twist a lot harder with the hips.

[readysetstab]

Anny steps and not annying the arm.

all of the throws are either flat(ish) or hyzer flipped so an anny arm motion wouldn't be right, would it? if that's not what you meant could you please elaborate...

the other points i'll be working on. i have worked on pulling closer to the chest and thats how i've been throwing lately, but i'm not used to it yet so i wanted this to be more of a true look at my form before adding in the fixes. i'm not good with the closer pull yet.

Both could twist a lot harder with the hips.

i've been working on this too and i just can't seem to get any more twist. i dont know what to do

i must have a 500 footer in me with as much as you mentioned

[JR]

Anny steps and not annying the arm.

all of the throws are either flat(ish) or hyzer flipped so an anny arm motion wouldn't be right, would it? if that's not what you meant could you please elaborate...

the other points i'll be working on. i have worked on pulling closer to the chest and thats how i've been throwing lately, but i'm not used to it yet so i wanted this to be more of a true look at my form before adding in the fixes. i'm not good with the closer pull yet.

Both could twist a lot harder with the hips.

i've been working on this too and i just can't seem to get any more twist. i dont know what to do

i must have a 500 footer in me with as much as you mentioned

When you match Aaron's arm speed

I meant that the legs and the arm should be doing the same thing so for a hyzer release your legs should positioned for a hyzer release. Running from left rear of the tee to the front center or right and planting the right leg right of the line you're running along gives you a steep tilt to the left ie hyzer(spike). Planting on the line or a couple of inches to the right of it gives a normal hyzer. Given that all the other parts of the form are fine.

I don't know what the gym piece of equipment is called where you sit and there are handles high and to the front on the sides that you grab and twist sitting down with the hips only to the side. Or you could hold a rubber band tied at the other end not moving the arm in relation to the body and twisting to the sides. For muscle strength that is. Situps and situps to the sides help too. For explosive acceleration you need to maximize speed and that's what you think of while doing. Not bulging the muscles like holding up weights.

I drilled hip twist speed standing back and heels to the wall perfectly upright straight stance. Starting slowly twist with the hips as you would during a throw. The right shoulder pushes you away from the wall. Gradually add speed until you fly away from the wall. It'll take several sessions I'd imagine. Please warm up before to avoid injuries and have several yards of clear floorspace ahead and to the sides because it can take several steps to stop when done properly. Also slippery floors and socks are very dangerous. Don't do this on either and remember this is all on your own risk. You can do this outside too. If in sight of your neighbors is unwanted then back against a tree in a forest should do too as long as there aren't any protruding parts waiting to stab you as you pull hard. If you want to add power training to the speed training you could move the feet a bit forward so that you're initially leaning back. The more you do the more your back is strained and I don't know if it's safe. I'm not medically trained. I wouldn't move the feet forward more than 14" to be on the safer side.

One tip about the hip twist speed is to do the same as you should do with the arm. Late acceleration. It's easier to learn the timing and muscle control for added speed by not turning away from the target a lot. Keep your eyes on the target and start the leg and hip turn veeery slowly. Just as you're coming to the point when you start to chop the elbow open start to twist as fast as you can with your hips. This resembles being startled by a loud noise and turning to face the direction of the sound as fast as you can. It's like touching something too hot and automatically twitching away from the heat source. That's waht you should aim for. You won't but that's a good goal and attitude.

[black udder]

I'm gonna beg to differ on the pulling closer to the chest. I think that's why you're getting to 400' now. I see the problem as an early release. If you look at MB's video, he talks about "releasing here instead of *here*, and doing that adds about another 50-100' to your throw"...something like that.

What I see you doing is not starting your throw from your hips and legs. You seem to pull with your arm the whole way, pull close to your chest and get some good wrist snap, but when the disc comes out, you're not chest facing the target and the disc is gone while your arm is still on the left side of your body. Your acceleration is from the reachback. So... by starting the rotation with the hips and lower body and building upwards, you should be able to hold the arm pull until the disc is around your chest area, then accelerate. That should give you some more distance.

Honestly, I wouldn't put 500' out of reach, but I think that you'd need to be throwing well to do it. If you incorporate your hips and rotate with more power/speed, I think you'd get into the 450' range regularly. The other will just depend on that unpredictable factor of how well can you consistently repeat a specific action.

I'm also thinking there might be a tad bit of nose up as well, considering how fast those discs climb. Although it could be the landscape or just that it's hard to see them. I'm not talking about anything major, but those flat discs looked like they should have been 10'-15' off the ground and they were well above that.

I think that you get your weight forward more on the hyzer flip. On the other shots you're more apt to be upright, but that's part of the shot. If you look at the last throw, right before you release, you'll see that you're off your center axis (leaning backwards a little) as you pull through. Perhaps that's what JR was referencing.

Another thing you could improve is how you use your momentum. If you watch, you'll see you take your couple steps, your x-step, then pause and pull. The run up should be used to prime your hips. It's helping you by giving you some backwards/forwards rocking motion. You need to be twisting and moving from back to front. Think of yourself like a rubber band and you wind yourself up, then uncoil. It's he uncoiling that gives you the most power and keeping the disc close to your chest all the way through just harnesses it.

This is a great shot of GG to show how he harnesses everything. I'd even wager he can do better as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJyq5xvBS0w#t=0m52s

[black udder]

okay - your buddy.

HUGE distance between off leg and plant leg. Get that distance closer. This means that they can't get weight forward (for them specifically). There's no hip and body rotation, this is just an arm pull. Add to it that the arm bends so the disc is over their left shoulder at the reach back (they're not pivoting their upper body to get the right shoulder facing the target) and then they swoop when they come through. This is what's causing the giant hyzer. Some quick improvements:

1. Shorter step - perhaps even standing still instead of using x-step - in which case, stand with legs around shoulder width apart.
2. Reach straight back and turn chest away from target to keep arm straight. Arm will bend when pulling back through.
3. Start the throw with a hip pivot (turn right knee in to start, turn right knee out and left knee in to finish). Just let the arm get pulled by body rotation until around the chest area, then pull.
4. Push off with the back leg so the weight goes forward onto the plant leg.
5. Throw with understable discs so instead of hyzers they get hyzer flips. 150g discs can be used for this purpose - a 150g valk, sidewinder or XL, TL, etc. They're all 150g and they won't need a ton of effort to see them fly a fair distance. Adds to the pleasure and reduces the pain of spike hyzer after spike hyzer.

To help reduce the swoop, focus on pulling across a flat surface when pulling through. Pulling higher, under the chin might help as well as doing some practice throwing anhyzers with putters. You need to pull flat to get the anhyzer and it just seems easier to stay flat with that shot. Then, once that's working, go back to normal and hyzer shots.

[readysetstab]

I'm also thinking there might be a tad bit of nose up as well, considering how fast those discs climb. Although it could be the landscape or just that it's hard to see them. I'm not talking about anything major, but those flat discs looked like they should have been 10'-15' off the ground and they were well above that.

i think i was just trying for some extra distance or something. might be a bit nose up, but i was looking for more flight. summary - you're probably right.

looks like i'll be working on one thing at a time. i've got a lot to think about when i go throw today...


good to know i've been helping Hank with the right things. i've been telling him about that big plant step and how it's been hindering his body rotation and keeping his weight back. he usually does throw hyzer flips, but it just wasn't happening with these throws. that's why i thought it might not be the best demonstration of his actual form. i think he'll be able to take a lot from the advice given here, regardless.

thanks!