Somebody Fix Me?

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Somebody Fix Me?

Postby TarHeelSam » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:26 pm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36709351@N02/3383828634/

Throwing:

Warlock
Star TL
Star Teebird
DX Teebird
New Champ. Wraith
Beat ESP Flash
KC Pro Roc

Longest throw was easily the Flash b/c it was the only one that didn't hyzer out on me.

Thanks!
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby Beetard » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:18 pm

Those looked like good throws to me. Good speed, good heel pivot, good left arm chase. Your throw doesn't look too far off from Climo's. Looks like your'e getting pretty much arm extension and getting faced up before the disc flies out of your hand. I'd have to guess that you can throw in the high 300s or low 400s, judging by your form.

You kind of run backwards during your runup. You're turned away from the target for too long.

What I think you would benefit from doing is watching some pro runups in slo-mo, then make chalk outlines of their foot positions on the ground, and then start walking through them and throwing, gradually working up to full speed.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby TarHeelSam » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:34 pm

Hmm... yeah I'll have to work on the backwards too long part, I haven't thought of that before.

I'm actually posting because I don't throw far at all, and I'm trying to figure out why. I honestly don't even think I'm hitting 300'. There has to be something major that I'm missing...

=(
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:59 pm

Get your elbow forward. About a foot more.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby black udder » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:24 pm

okay - here's what I see.

1. You're not pivoting your lower body first. This is all arm pull.
2. You're not getting any snap. When you pull through, your wrist is neutral and it stays that way through the chest pull as well.
3. You're hit is early. It's out to the left side of your body instead of closer to the center.

I agree that the foot pivot as well as the motions look good, but I think it's misleading and you're missing all the power points.

The lower body rotation will give you more upper body speed and more power behind your arm pull. Bending your wrist as you pull the disc into your chest will pre-load it for the hit and much better snap. And holding the pull later will result in your fastest movement at the last of the throw instead of from the very back of your reach back.

It did look like you had the nose down though, so that's real positive.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby zj1002 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:29 pm

i am not expert but it almost looks like you are forcing your left arm into that position rather than letting it be more natural. i may be wrong but i always thought the arm moving into that position should be a result of hitting everything properly, not you subconsciously thinking about putting it there
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby TarHeelSam » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:Get your elbow forward. About a foot more.


Can you elaborate more on this?


black udder wrote:okay - here's what I see.

1. You're not pivoting your lower body first. This is all arm pull.
2. You're not getting any snap. When you pull through, your wrist is neutral and it stays that way through the chest pull as well.
3. You're hit is early. It's out to the left side of your body instead of closer to the center.

I agree that the foot pivot as well as the motions look good, but I think it's misleading and you're missing all the power points.

The lower body rotation will give you more upper body speed and more power behind your arm pull. Bending your wrist as you pull the disc into your chest will pre-load it for the hit and much better snap. And holding the pull later will result in your fastest movement at the last of the throw instead of from the very back of your reach back.

It did look like you had the nose down though, so that's real positive.


Does this relate to what Brad said?
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby Blink » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:33 pm

Yeah the disc looks like it might be coming out early, and with the snap and elbow thing you want to bring it farther across your chest halfway or so through your right pec. Disc could probably be closer to your chest throughout your pull. These are all things related to snapping the disc for more spin. This will delay the fade of the disc most importantly. You probably get bigger distance when you griplock it to the right? That's when you accidentally snap it.

You're problem doesn't seem to be with your arm speed, and your lower body/torso seems fine too (I can't see the little things like BU and Bradley). I could only conclude you would have a lack of distance from a lack or snap, or just throwing the disc nose up, but those throws looked nice and level so I doubt the latter.

Also in your first step with the right foot, it can be pointed slightly backwards, but yours is a bit too much making you turn your back more than you have to.

You can go through the typical snap lessons with the right pec drill/bent elbow technique, looser grip during swing up until the hit.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby Aaron_D » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:45 pm

i am not expert but it almost looks like you are forcing your left arm into that position rather than letting it be more natural. i may be wrong but i always thought the arm moving into that position should be a result of hitting everything properly, not you subconsciously thinking about putting it there


I dont find this to be the case. Proper off arm placement is crucial and forcing it is good--at least at first. I would assume that he is simply trying to emulate what he sees pros do. He isnt all that far off. 1st of all I would calm the whole throw down. Im willing to bet you get about the same D on a "normal" pull as you do on one where you "oomph" it. You arent harnessing any runup momentum and you probably shouldnt try to at this point. Your runup should be used almost entirely to facilitate proper body mechanics. Your left arm looks good until the point when your torso unwinds and opens up. Keep your arm straighter and your elbow in closer. It feels really weird at first and you will have to force it. I have just started trying to do it and it isnt really something that happens naturally...at least not for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg&feature=related <---watch their off arms. They are all actively thrusting their hands down and straightening their elbows. Like cracking a whip. You can see the energy travel from their left hand into the disc.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby TarHeelSam » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:18 am

Yeah I'm totally not feeling the snap. Yikes, I've got a lot to think about.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby JR » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:08 am

Blink wrote:Also in your first step with the right foot, it can be pointed slightly backwards, but yours is a bit too much making you turn your back more than you have to.


Turning the back and getting the elbow as far away from the target adds power assuming one can maintain balance, body control and thus late acceleration.

Unfortunately this was another of those flickr videos I can't see.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby black udder » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:12 pm

TarHeelSam wrote:
Bradley Walker wrote:Get your elbow forward. About a foot more.


Can you elaborate more on this?


black udder wrote:okay - here's what I see.

1. You're not pivoting your lower body first. This is all arm pull.
2. You're not getting any snap. When you pull through, your wrist is neutral and it stays that way through the chest pull as well.
3. You're hit is early. It's out to the left side of your body instead of closer to the center.

I agree that the foot pivot as well as the motions look good, but I think it's misleading and you're missing all the power points.

The lower body rotation will give you more upper body speed and more power behind your arm pull. Bending your wrist as you pull the disc into your chest will pre-load it for the hit and much better snap. And holding the pull later will result in your fastest movement at the last of the throw instead of from the very back of your reach back.

It did look like you had the nose down though, so that's real positive.


Does this relate to what Brad said?


Not specifically, no. Although if you do those, you end up doing what he said :)

What you're doing is "throwing" a disc. Now it sounds stupid, but to get the best throws, you're not throwing so much as guiding. You want to harness the power of a really strong turn from back to front as well as your arm which will tuck in as you pivot and swing out as you square up. Just like when a dancer does a pirouette, they pull their arms in to build speed. You're doing similar, but you're only doing half a pirouette. Reach back and then start to turn, pull your arm in, come to 90 degrees from target, rotation moves from hips/lower body to waist/upper body and as you start to square up, let that arm go and pull as fast as you can. That will jettison the disc away from you with incredible speed and spin.

It's why you can see a hulk-like guy throw only 200' and a tiny wisp of a person throw 400'. It's the mechanics of throwing, not the power of the thrower.

My favorite method to see this is to leave your arms slack by your sides and try a normal pull (leaving arms by your side - just pretend your arm is up with a disc), then try the same thing focusing on rotating from your legs/hips and then moving to your waist/shoulders. The second motion should really move your arms and you should feel the power of utilizing the rest of your body in the throw. Once you see the difference, it'll be easier to work on.

As for the movement of the disc, in simplest terms. Reach back & hold disc out. Turn your body 90 degrees and bring disc into your chest, with wrist curled inwards so that the disc touches your forearm. Now rotate your shoulders (with disc tucked in) to face the front (your target). Sometime between 45 degrees away from the target and 5 degrees away from the target you'll extend your arm and try and keep the disc right against your forearm the whole time - don't uncock your wrist until it's the last motion. How much arm speed you have will determine when you begin to extend your arm. The later the better, but if you're too slow, you'll miss the hit. That's why it's a matter of timing.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby JHern » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:21 pm

TarHeelSam wrote:Yeah I'm totally not feeling the snap. Yikes, I've got a lot to think about.


Yeah, seems like the hit is what is missing. Your form is good enough to get much longer distances, I think. This has been my problem too, and something I've needed to work on...I've crossed the 300 ft mark on good days, but still not getting nearly as much distance as my body should be capable of delivering given my almost ideal dimensions for throwing a disc.

Go out and find a small person who is throwing far, and play a round with them. Watch what happens at the last moment before release, and you'll see that there's an awful lot more going on than just having the disc roll out of your fingers. That's the hit. In the proper hit it seems the wrist is springing open super fast before the arm has reached about full extension...this is the most challenging part, I think, is getting your wrist to spring open super fast. As the wrist is springing open, the index and thumb are pinching down hard to create a strong pivot. The result, in your case, would easily be an extra hundred feet on top of what you're already throwing.

Dan Beato's video is good for body and arm mechanics, but it doesn't teach the hit the way I understand it now. There is nothing in the drill that helped me with the wrist springing open at the end. This is something that just takes practice, and then it becomes so second-nature that you forget that you're even doing it and don't bother to explain it in detail to newer players...that's how it seems to me. The late wrist opening and pinch is something all good players have...check it out for yourself.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby black udder » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:37 pm

Go look through this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10323

It's got a ton of info you need to read. There's also some pictures that might help explain your wrist position.
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Re: Somebody Fix Me?

Postby JHern » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:34 pm

Aaron_D wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg&feature=related <---watch their off arms. They are all actively thrusting their hands down and straightening their elbows. Like cracking a whip. You can see the energy travel from their left hand into the disc.


This is a great point, and a great video to illustrate. Thanks for posting this Aaron, I'll be working on this angle myself (my off arm is not being very useful at the moment).
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