Steady's Drive

[Steady 26542]

OK, first let me preface this by saying that I'll be 55 yrs old this summer. With that in mind, please critic my throw. There are things I need to work on and I'd like to try to work on them one at a time so I don't get confused and then don't get any of them right. I carry a 960 rating, but I'm only getting 300' - 325' out of drives.

Things I feel I need to work on:
1) Can I lead better with my elbow? I just don't get that much "whip" out of my arm.
2) Hit it harder at the "hit." Honestly, I'm throwing as hard as I can, really!
3) Get my lower body into it. I just can't seem to get this out in the field.

Any other thoughts?? Thanks for the help!

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... 9Throw.flv

[Blink]

Pretty much what you said. I can't see the little things, but your form looks pretty sound from that angle. I would think the main things to improve (including what you were saying):

Hitting it harder
Late acceleration
Pulling close to the chest and releasing the disc more out front of yourself than to the side.
Using the hips (though I can't tell much)
Utilize your left leg more.
Be lighter/quicker on your feet. I read somewhere on here that your pace should quicken throughout your x-step.

You probably don't need to improve much at most of those things, usually it comes down to timing if nothing else.

[bcsst26]

Three things that I can see.

1. Shorten up that plant step. I think this will help you get your weight forward more. Right now it is to long and you are throwing behind it instead of over it.

2. Maybe try to turn more away from the target to get more distance.

3. Get your lower body more involved. I think you are using them but not as much as you could. For me I worked throwing from a standstill to understand this. Did you ever try it? Kind of distance you get from that.

I am no expert but maybe this will get you on the right track.

[JR]

Us young whipper snappers may lack more than just personal knowledge of how the body works and how it can be safely trained at your age. I think you should see a sport specialized doc to get a safe fitness and speed training program. My dad at least matched your arm speed at 60 years old. You might benefit from leg, hip and arm speed exercises.

To me it seems odd to give advice to someone with your record.

You could get your elbow out a couple more inches but there's another thing that is at least equally important. Your timing of motions isn't in synch. Correcting that may be hazardous to your legs and hips at least but if doable from health perspective (please see a good doc -no guarantees from me) it would address your problems. You have your chest turning toward the target before the elbow gets out. Standing in front of mirror strike an immobile pose starting with a regular x step stopping facing the mirror. At this point your elbow should be as far from your torso as it can toward the target with the disc tight to the right pec area depending on your build. You should be able to look along your upper arm toward the target. Keeping the disc at shoulder height. From here you should quickly straighten your left knee pushing forward with that leg and if the doc allows twist faster with the hips if you can. Training may help.

Once you start the left leg push and hip twist later than thus far your hips can twist faster helping the shoulders pulling faster making the elbow chop faster. Everything happens faster and you need to hold on to the disc tighter because there's more generated power. The throw takes less time so it makes aiming different for most. Accuracy will come with practice. The real question is how much speed you can generate with the body safely and can it take the added acceleration and force you can generate with delaying the beginning of the hip twist.

If your body can take it bending both knees so that you are abut two inches lower could help too. Is it safe to turn the toes farther away from the target at the plant step is something that a doc should look at. That along with added hip twisting back at the reach back would allow more generated power as long as you can keep your form clean.

I'd like to have other opinions on this: With your current arm speed you might not generate enough speed to utilize late acceleration fully. Mark did not have success early on with trying to get a slower arm speed accelerating late. Have you had better late accelerations than this video and have you gained distance that way? The reason I ask is that Mark may be at the upper limit of his arm speed and may not be able to get longer discs working due to inadequate speed. If the above suggestions won't help. It may be that he won't get more speed out of his body with exercising just maintain current speed longer. If form changes aren't enough he might reach his best distances accelerating earlier than us younger folks with higher top speeds and faster accelerations.

[Jesse B 707]

aren't you a multiple time am world champion?? don't F-ing listen to us, obviously you've got something figured out

[erb]

One thing how my throw differs from yours is I get my shoulders turned more perpendicular to the line I'm going to throw on than you do. I think if you would do that you would be generating more power form your torso/core that will help your throw. One way I can tell you are not generating that much power is that after the disc leaves your hand your left leg isn't needed that much to brace yourself. I end up with my left side closer to the target than my right side b/c when i throw my body does a spin where my left leg has to come down in front of my body to brace me from biting the dust. Maybe it was just the view of the film though.

[Steady 26542]

aren't you a multiple time am world champion?? don't F-ing listen to us, obviously you've got something figured out

Yes I am, but the key word is Am... I want to compete with the Pro GM's. Obviously putting is very important at the Pro level but I'd really like to be able to drive 350' as an average. I really like several ideas that have been suggested. Shortening my final step has some very good promise to it. I'll have to watch the timing for it. Turning the shoulders more should help too. I need to lead more with the elbow and keep it closer to my body. I'm still putting 100% in and getting 80% out. (At least I think that's the case.)

I think I heard someone else say this about their throws. I noticed that when I really catch one it goes around 20 degrees to the right. (RHBH) It was hard to measure since it was off line quite a bit, but I'd say it went around 350'. I don't understand that. Is it because I might actually get some wrist extension or what? Oh yeah, wrist extension is another thing I need to work on.

Thanks everyone for the comments. I'll post a video in a month or two with my progress. (Hopefully it will be progress...)

[black udder]

I don't want to sound negative, but if you're rated 960 now and throw 325', then you might just consider leaving well enough alone. You might get that 350' of distance, but you might also screw your form up so much it'll take a couple years to get it back again.

It looks like you are throwing as hard as you can - meaning, you are pulling from the back and not using your body to help you build momentum and power. You should be rotating and then throwing the last 25% of your throw (from around the right pec area). By rotating your lower body, you can throw that same distance with less effort. With what you know, you might be able to combine/add a few new things and eek out another 25' (nose down is a huge thing and you probably have that down).

Good luck.

[JR]

I think I heard someone else say this about their throws. I noticed that when I really catch one it goes around 20 degrees to the right. (RHBH) It was hard to measure since it was off line quite a bit, but I'd say it went around 350'. I don't understand that. Is it because I might actually get some wrist extension or what?

Check the technique repair section about grip lock. It's very possible that you pinched too hard with your index finger or didn't pull that close to your chest. Lack of late acceleration makes it worse because the disc won't leave early enough and/or cleanly enough. Also timing of acceleration has an effect. Basically the disc should leave the hand at least as fast as the hand moves. Preferably faster. Yes it is possible thanks to wrist extension and disc pivot because the disc moves on a larger arc than the hand. Without late acceleration it is possible that the hand slows down before release but your case is the opposite. You're accelerating after the normal release point like you should for a proper disc release (irony). Since the disc was death gripped and did not release at normal point in time you continued to accelerate to where it normally would be 20 degrees into a follow through. In the time it took your arm to move 20 degrees you got more speed on the disc. There might have been more spin even relatively to speed if your regular release is a thousandth or a few of a second early.

[Steady 26542]

BU - yes, I've thought about that a lot. (Leaving well enough along) But if I could improve my form a bit I think I could get that extra D. Pulling closer to the chest is key, as is hitting later. I really don't feel I hit it late enough.

JR - I know I don't have late acceleration. I just don't have much acceleration at all I don't think. I feel like I am going pretty steady from the get go. I accelerate quickly but then I'm maxed out for most of my pull. I watch guys throw all the time and they have much more force behind their throw.

I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but I've been working on curling my wrist in toward my body as soon as I start the pull. My thought is that it will make the disc closer to my body and keep my speed down until a bit later, as well as get more of a whipping action. So far I haven't noticed any improvement. I'm also going to work on not taking the disc so far back. That way I don't have to pull the disc forward as far. I'm hoping that will help me better time the hit. I'm also looking at shortening my last step. Boy, that sounds like a lot of things to try. I'm hoping one of them helps.

Thanks again everyone.

[JR]

BU - yes, I've thought about that a lot. (Leaving well enough along) But if I could improve my form a bit I think I could get that extra D. Pulling closer to the chest is key, as is hitting later. I really don't feel I hit it late enough.

JR - I know I don't have late acceleration. I just don't have much acceleration at all I don't think. I feel like I am going pretty steady from the get go. I accelerate quickly but then I'm maxed out for most of my pull. I watch guys throw all the time and they have much more force behind their throw.

I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but I've been working on curling my wrist in toward my body as soon as I start the pull. My thought is that it will make the disc closer to my body and keep my speed down until a bit later, as well as get more of a whipping action. So far I haven't noticed any improvement. I'm also going to work on not taking the disc so far back. That way I don't have to pull the disc forward as far. I'm hoping that will help me better time the hit. I'm also looking at shortening my last step. Boy, that sounds like a lot of things to try. I'm hoping one of them helps.

Thanks again everyone.

Pre cocking the wrist opens the elbow by pushing the arm away from the chest so it is counter productive. However; you can pre tension the forearm tendons by emulating Doss, Schultz etc. who put the arm to where you release then reach back quickly locking the wrist straight at the reach back. For late acceleration and shortening the pull reading the thread about the right pec drill is great. The later one starts the arm acceleration the faster it will be and easier to feel.

[rehder]

What helped me lately is focussing on keeping the disc TIGHT to my body and very importantly trying to pull it into my elbow or jam the disc into my schoulder/upper arm (aka. barry schultz). This will result in a faster ejection without trying to increase armspeed, since you get better effects from your bodys leverage. (arm/elbow uncocking)

[Steady 26542]

I went to the field today and was pleasantly surprised by my midrange throws. They were very consistently hitting 275'. I'm posting both a side view and a behind view. I tried to focus on starting more with the hips but I don't think I did that on the videos I captured. I was happy with how I led with the elbow though. Thanks for any critics!

On a side note. I got two drives out to 350' on similar lines as my midrange throws. I was VERY happy with that. One was with a 167 MOLF. I just love that disc.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... Throws.flv

[black udder]

I think part of your issue lies in this picture:



I can find a picture of Ken in a similar position:



While I'd have thought the disc is too far away from your chest, you can see that he appears to have the disc about the same distance away. But he also seems to be more weight forward as well.

You might try out a different disc, something like a valk in a 16xg range. Something you can hyzerflip for some additional distance instead of those dead flat flights. It's harder to push an overstable disc out far dead flat vs flipping an slightly more understable disc up and over and taking advantage of the glide. When I watch you throw, it looks pretty effortless, but when you look at your face, it looks like you're really throwing hard. One of the things you're missing I suspect you just don't have - arm speed. I do believe you could still go with later acceleration and get more distance. It would mean just sort of bending your elbow and then pivoting your shoulders faster and then letting that arm eject the disc later. The down side is that it's going to mess with your timing a lot.

Have you tried throwing anhyzer for distance? That might yield you the 25' you're looking for, too.

The one thing I do believe you can do is pull closer to the chest and accelerate later.

Good luck!

[JR]

Agreed with weight forward. You aren't lagging behind badly. You're hurting your right ankle, knee and hip big time possibly lower back too by having a mismatch with planting position and arm plane. Your arm is mild hyzer and the plant is 7-9" too far to the left. It's an anny plant position. Check out the stopped motion right leaning stance after the follow through with the QMS throw. You achieve a flat throw by any plant being countered by a hyzer release. It's very susceptible to changes with different power levels. A rule of thumb is that once you achieve flat fight at full power you'll get hyzer flight at less than full power with discs that you flip from hyzer to flat. This is bad in long tournaments if you tire and lose throwing power.

Don't know if you can safely twist faster with the hips but a young fast guy should wait longer to turn their hips from facing 90 degrees left of the target in relation to the elbow. I'd push the elbow 3-4" farther away from the right side toward the target before starting to turn my hips toward the target. There's literally underlying problem that we share here. Check how your left foot side and mostly the toe only touches the ground when your left knee is still bent and your chest pointing is 80 degrees left of the target? It ain't gonna push a lot with that available knee straightening potential because the foot is slipping. This makes the hip twist slower and aids in releasing left. it occurs more often when doing fast run ups. Shorter steps helps too in addition to slowing down the first two steps. Too bad that'll rob power and distance. It's better to get the form right at lower speed first because it'll eventually carry over to full power and speed throws.

You want to have your chest pointed 90 degrees left of the target, elbow about as far away from the side as possible, disc just missing the chest with the hip in the neutral position. Ideally the left leg should still have some knee bend left straightening really fast accelerating and the hips starting to accelerate the twist violently with the arm reaching end of the mellow pull accelerating with the elbow chop pell mell after the disc passes the right pec. This is standard advice for young healthy people. revisions are mandatory according to doc's evaluation depending on age and health.

Timing is the most important part IMO and everyone throwing farther than you has probably gone through timing tweaks. I'm no exception to that majority here at DGR. Plant position tweak is probably easier than getting the elbow farther. Beware that it'll dramatically increase the stresses to the right shoulder muscles (each deltoid) and added to that a closer pull to the chest is gonna bring some tendon bounce and injury potential to play. Therefore it's of supreme importance to warm up, stretch and throw at less than full power for a long while before utilizing great form with 90+% power. The time throwing warm ups at medium power is individual and changes with age, other warm up activities, prior exhaustion level and lack of stretching after prior exercise. Among other variables. My front deltoid is a living proof of the danger of tommies half warmed up in just above freezing temperature a year ago. Still bothering me. Take care or you may risk your hat trick of worlds wins or is it a cap trick in DG? Nobody's getting younger. I'm a generation younger than you, injured, but still feeling the wear and tear of age already.