Alright, let's hear it... ***UPDATED 8/28/08***

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Alright, let's hear it... ***UPDATED 8/28/08***

Postby curt » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:06 pm

So, I finally got my hands on a video camera and made it to the course on the same day.

This throw is w/ a champ teebird that is fairly beat and has started to fly pretty straight. This particular shot went somewhere between 325 -350. Flipped up just a bit and remained pretty straight. There is a full speed followed by 1/10th speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrE69KfcMXs

My observations:
1. I roll the disc 90 degrees from flat in the back swing (I've been working on this, but how much of an effect does it have?)
2. Pull through is anything but flat. Starts low, goes high, and ends something that resembles flat. (any comments?)

My questions:
How's the nose angle look? I've always had problems seeing this and have been trying to focus on it lately.
Also, what timing issues should I work on?

*changed link to video
Last edited by curt on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby JR » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:32 pm

Any chance of youtube since I can't see this despite newest software so it's likely security settings and I won't mess with those?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby black udder » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:08 am

Doesn't look too bad at the result. I don't know if how you hold the disc matters much since you get it tight to the chest and flat as you pull through. You appear to be weight forward and nose down or at least nose level. I don't see much hip/lower body incorporation, seems to be mostly arm, which indicates you've got a bit of snap going. Also, it could be that you're releasing a tad earlier than your max potential, but if you're accurate I wouldn't complain.

You might want to see about bending that plant knee a little to give you more support. I've heard that having it straight like that can increase the risk for twisting the knee.

I've thought that keeping the disc in tight to the forearm a little later is better, so that's a possibility also.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby curt » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:33 am

Any chance of youtube since I can't see this despite newest software so it's likely security settings and I won't mess with those?


Done.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby JR » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:39 pm

Thanks for the youtube version.

You get the disc very close to the chest excellent! Try to get your elbow farther toward the target away from your side before you begin to push hard with the left leg straightening that knee. In the reach back you change both hyzer angle and height of the line which moves down on the way to the release. Keeping the disc at constant height and angle increases the time window during which to release to the intended direction at wanted angles. Added consistency.

Unless your legs are seriously top athlete level strong you start the run up too fast for the used power from the right leg. You fly off the tee toward the target instead of pivoting around which I think creates more speed and spin on the disc. Slower leg speed has two other benefits. Less power in the beginning twists your arms less so it's easier to maintain the angles constant. Accelerating later and harder is possible with a slower initial speed. Added late acceleration with the legs has an added benefit of pivoting in place adding spin and speed while stressing the right leg less than adding more running speed. About that you need to stiffen the right leg to about full power bulging of the muscles in order to pivot. You had good knee bend angles in the run up but you all but straightened the right knee at the pivot it is better to have some bend there.

The plant step length is ok for that fast a run up but the left leg push wasn't quick enough to push you enough weight forward. With that little waist bend forward. Heart over the right knee in back to front direction at release. Try to push harder with the left leg and with that added momentum a faster hip twist should get your torso turned toward the target at the release. If you can step just a bit higher at the ball of the foot eliminating heel drag on the ground it'd help turning toward the target at the release.

Can you slap the palms together behind your back with straight arms? Doing a dozen of those in arming up should loosen you and maybe stretching the pec would help too. Those should help in maintaining a constant angle in the follow through. Is the largest high up vertical muscle of the back restricting the motion of the arm by having your shoulder blade colliding to it? If so that may cause those changes in the follow through.
Looking at the slo mo it looked like your wrist was down enough until collapsing upward late in the throw when the wrist uncoils. So you should tighten forearm muscles especially those near the wrist to keep the wrist down. Considering your arm was moving down the wrist collapsing was severe because the disc left with slight nose up. Even with a level arm pull with weight forward just a little more wrist down will give you extra D. The disc seemed to fly slightly annied. Considering the follow through and nose up induced OAT and the disc and distance achieved it wouldn't be surprising if the disc flipped a little more quickly after release before flexing and probably fading if it wasn't very well used.

Message from Ed IT: Try to chop the arm straight before the disc leaves. That means a loose grip up to onset of elbow chop tensioning a little early on and tight just before the release. Don't whack the arm back as it is the major factor in the disc angle changes at the reach back. And takes away muscle controlling ability and acceleration potential when the disc moves forward. Unless you manage the hard to learn plyometric loading and unloading of the shoulder turn back at the reach back with a loose arm moving forward slower than now early on accelerating fast only at the end. When the elbow chops.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby curt » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:52 pm

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. It was definitely worth putting it on youtube for the great critque JR.

I am basically hearing two themes so far.
1. SLOW DOWN!!!! (this is actually something i've been working on a little and it feels good)
2. get the lower body involved more.

My plan:
work on a standing throw focusing on weight shift, opening the hips, and bending the plant.
work on slowing down the runup (make a walkup perhaps?)
-work on controlling backswing
-shorten plant step
-increase rotational speed as opposed to forward momentum

Does that sound about right?
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby JR » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:59 am

Sounds good ad I agree with BU that even this video was not bad at all. Sneaking the first two steps was easier for me trying to delay late acceleration of the arm. Better than a walk up initially. Once I got better adding speed to walk up was a no brainer and jogging came easily as well. Getting a great form with the speed in this vid is where the form starts to suffer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby curt » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:24 am

Sneaking the first two steps was easier for me


Not quite sure what you mean by this.

I did get out to the field for about 10 minutes after a softball game last night to work on hip rotation. I can definitely feel the power, but it is slowing my arm speed down a ton, I think. So, it's definitely one step backwards right now, but once i get it it'll be at least 2 forward.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby JR » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:37 pm

curt wrote:
Sneaking the first two steps was easier for me


Not quite sure what you mean by this.

I did get out to the field for about 10 minutes after a softball game last night to work on hip rotation. I can definitely feel the power, but it is slowing my arm speed down a ton, I think. So, it's definitely one step backwards right now, but once i get it it'll be at least 2 forward.


Sneaking speed=sloooowwwww... steps for the two first steps exploding quick after the third step has planted. It's normal to lose performance elsewhere when concentrating on a new thing. There's less brain power left over to concentrate on guiding the rest of the throw. At least until the new form becomes automatic. Change one piece and the whole changes again.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby curt » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:42 pm

Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now in the field, and it feels good (I am having a hard time trying to force a hip pivot but I can feel that once it clicks it will be good). Oddly, despite feeling like I've lost a lot of arm speed, I don't think there is much distance loss just very different flight path. (more overtsbale unless I torque it over which happens occasionally)
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Re: Alright, let's hear it...

Postby JR » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:54 pm

curt wrote:Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now in the field, and it feels good (I am having a hard time trying to force a hip pivot but I can feel that once it clicks it will be good). Oddly, despite feeling like I've lost a lot of arm speed, I don't think there is much distance loss just very different flight path. (more overtsbale unless I torque it over which happens occasionally)


Slowing down the run up will lead to earlier fade and usually slowing down run up isn't compensated for by added pivot speed initially at least. Later on with practice it seems that you'll get more D from pivoting.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Alright, let's hear it... ***UPDATED 8/28/08***

Postby curt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:38 pm

Ok, so its been several months, I'm back in school and had another chance to shoot some throws. I think they look a little better now, and I seem to be throwing further. I am still all over the place during my backswing (even though I thought I was doing better). My biggest question is how is the timing between the arm swing and the lower body. To me it looks like I'm generating a lot of rotational power, but it is coming around late and not being transitioned to the disc. Thought? Also, I very much welcome any other observations I'm missing. These throws were into a mild headwind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77ruUsXG2IM

(I uploaded 5 different shots to utube, but am just going to link one, if anyone would really like to see the others and wants some links let me know and I'll post them up)
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Re: Alright, let's hear it... ***UPDATED 8/28/08***

Postby curt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:55 pm

on a different, much geekier note, here is a still right after releasing the disc:

Image

also, here are some comparisons b/t the 5 videos I shot today. Its when my plant foot lands, when the disc reaches my pec and the 2 frames following that. Feel free to ignore these. I just though some others out there may enjoy looking at it.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Alright, let's hear it... ***UPDATED 8/28/08***

Postby black udder » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:57 pm

I think it's better than before. Looks like better arm speed. If you watch your back foot and when the disc comes out, it's just about off the ground, which (if my current theory is correct), you're not harnessing your lower body, you are spinning on your pivot foot instead of pivoting your hips. Keep that back leg down until the disc is gone. What you end up with is something like some of Brad's recent throws or Dan's throws - the ones where he basically stops, then walks away.

What I'm experimenting with is pushing/pivoting with my back foot as I pivot with on the front heel. I don't have any upper/lower body timing, but that seems logically what the guys who pivot on their heel do. You're very close to a toe pivot, almost flat footed, and you're spinning on your plant foot.

It'd be nice to see some time before after the throw since this is sooo fast. From what I can tell, you're accelerating late which is good, even though you do still have some of that funky backswing :)

It's so fast, I can't tell if you're getting any tendon bounce or where the disc is coming out (nose up, close to chest, etc.)

I think the form looks better than the first though - more in control.
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