OAT ATTACK

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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby JR » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:15 am

Aaron_D wrote:I must disagree... Ive found my run up adds very little D unless it is literally me running up and even then it only seems to add maybe 10% to my overall D. Plus, footwork doesnt explain why my standstill drives and minimal runup were going the same D if not farther than my first throws.


Ah but look at the difference between the first throws and the last one to see the difference in quickness of the motions and the rate of acceleration when everything starts to fire. Like I wrote it's _both_ the legwork and the body control (and the related conscious guidance of the body) to move faster. To my eye there's a clear visible difference in firing speed of the muscles in favor of the last throw against the previous ones with the second last being fine as well but not as stellar as the final throw.

I'm also in the camp where the run up doesn't add up that much D even though I'm speed dominant. I stll can get some leg power and limited hip power after injury and lots of it prior to injury. From recent experience and visual proof in these vids I can say with great certainty that you have the potential for great hip action as evidenced by the final throw. But it's not just the hips that act differently in these vids. Just having battle with the same issues for the last two days I can say that I've had similar D swings as you from only sluggish body control of acceleration vs good acceleration. The way I overcame these problems was to yawn after drawing the lungs almost full then breathing almost fully out while trying to relax the muscles to sleeping state prior to the throw.

I suggest trying this relaxation drill and throwing with max acceleration late in the throw left pec hit vs extended toward the target hit while videoing and reviewing the differences visually and distance wise. Because snap based throws dominate on the courses and run up throws are rare and you are special case in that you have the leg and hip power to overcome the added power requirement of using the arm as a lever like you do. An extended arm like yours does need more power to drive it around the body equally fast as a close to the right pec form. Not everyone has that advantage of throwing far with both forms. According to the laws of physics concerning levers you should throw even farther promoting you to super distance category if you pulled it off with good form and timing.

Look at what masterbeato posted video wise today for comparison. He throws faaaaar. He does pull close to the chest and outdistances you by a lot. Notice how slowly he moves the elbow forward on Wizard and Roc throws? If you can look at the 2004 worlds DVD and check out Kristen Weidle then and now on youtube and note what Feldy and Climo say about not using the elbow on their DVD. That might illuminate things. In my view you have the nervous system and muscle quickness and power to go beyond 500' as long as you get a more efficient form. I don't consider your D to be indicative of perfect form in relation to your great physical prowess. I can only dream of such power and quickness but combining that to a more efficient form ceteris paribus (look it up if it ain't familiar) regarding quickness of motions should push you to well beyond 450'. Not many can reach so far with a straight arm as you do.

The vid that you posted with only slo mo shows just how early the disc departs your hand. That should be major concern and I think you know what it means. I'm struggling with grip locks and early releases now so I don't feel qualified about helping with that. Yet.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Aaron_D » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:21 am

the difference is that I was consciously trying to put the hit past my right pec in the first throw. the second throws with the timberwolf i was trying to put the hit closer to the middle of my chest and the last two throws I was trying to put the hit at my left pec. I think timing is definitely a huge part of the problem, but what is that timing difference?

As far as my elbow not bending, Brad mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I never saw in my vids what he was talking about. A higher FPS camera would be much more helpful for determining this. However, if you look at my standstill drive there is a frame where my elbow is as cocked as it can possibly be. I think this is happening too fast for my camera and it was just luck it caught it on this throw. Blake likened my throw to steve rico recently and I am starting to see the comparisons. Less reah back, arm speed dominant. I think we have similar builds so maybe that has something to do with it.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Aaron_D » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:27 am

JR the early hit IS my major concern! hahha :lol: :lol:

I just spent like 3 months trying to fix this and my D went down considerably and never recovered. I wasnt after quick gains and I know the 2 steps back phenomenon very very very well... :)

That is why this is so puzzling. My D with a farther towards my right pec throw is around 360-380 golf D with teebirds while my early, left pec hit throw goes 430+ golf D with teebirds.

You are SO right about relaxation. I always find that my 75% power throws go just as far as my crunches. Timing is so important and so difficult to get right for me.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:23 am

okay... here's some shots. I think for starters that you're not getting as far into the right pec as you think, but you are right about it being hard to capture. I also believe that you come in much closer/tighter standing still than you do with any sort of walk up/run up. You get your body rotation and arm moving so fast that you have them moving away from one another.

Here's your first throw right about at the hit. check the body position, arm & disc:
Image

Okay, now here's your last one. Once again, check body position, legs, arm & disc:
Image

I'll be honest, I don't see much difference and that leads me to believe it's all timing. It's the rotational power you generate with your shoulders, the late pull and the wrist extension. You get it at the end, but the first throw you don't. Perhaps because of you trying to focus on pulling in closer to the right pec.

As you can see here, you're not that close to the right pec in your first throw:
Image

or the last:
Image

It looks really similar.

Compared with your stand still shot here:
Image

If you look at this one, it might just be that you're moving too fast to get the disc into the right pec:
Image

If you have the goal of getting in tighter to the right pec, you can see that your shoulder is already pulling away and your elbow chopping out. I don't know that it's important to get in so tight as much as it is to coordinate your pull and wrist extension so you pull late and get that smash like you do in the last throws.

I really believe the difference between the first throws and the last is the timing in piggy backing your body power. Your hips, shoulders and body rotation sort of drags the disc up to your pull in the last shots, in the first one, it seems much more like you rotate and pull all at once.

What's really crazy is in this picture, you're just starting to pull (probably a few frames before, but you're so fast it's hard to capture):
Image

Elbow has stopped and your lower arm is chopping out. Is that good/bad? Dunno. Dan is tighter into his right pec sometimes. Feldberg is way out. Schultz still has his elbow bent and the disc almost against his chest. Just leads me to believe that the position isn't so important (as Blake keeps saying) it's the timing of your motions. Is the disc still behind your wrist as you pull, as it's coming around, are you extending the wrist for full power? Did you really pull 100% to the finish? Or did you sort of peter out? Stuff like that.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby JR » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:52 am

I'll be responding later to diplomacy and research and teaching method issues in the other thread later because that is relevant to more people than you. Me included.

I'm promoting hitting when the torso is almost turned toward the target rip occuring at 11.30ish where the target is at 12 o'clock. That's very different to what you're doing so far. The reason is my bane. Knowing ain't throwing. And what bugs me with the research issues is that I'm not 100 % positive on some issues because they are making sense on theoretical level from physics but my injuries have so far prevented me from testing them IRL. So far my experience has been that trying to learn to self diagnose after each throw I still have to read the flight of the disc for explanations to some throws for going wrong because I did not _feel_ , and this is the crucial part, the error even though I know that the disc flew to wrong direction in a wrong way and way short. I can't say if your physical sensation or focu on a left pec hit is wrong or if and why it's yielding a longer throw than a right pec release.

The correct form to my current knowledge subject to change with more information is that a right pec release is an arm's length too early. I'm not the only one seeing minimal gain so far, more for others, in D from hitting at 11.30-12oclock vs your straightish arm 9.30. Yes I maintain that I saw your elbow being almost straight(not totally) in that slo mo only vid. And refuse to believe that it was the beer that I drank. Until watching it again sober. :-)

Because I'm almost (practically fully but allowing for further evidence to change my opinion) sure of the timing of the optimum efficiency release and body positions to be arm straight at 11.30 or close to it I'd really like to hear your experience of facing the target reaching 11.30 rip position and timing. Not feeling it but managing it with video proof. That should put your doubts to bed if that gives you more D. Please try not to make hasty conclusions either way based on this test until dozens of repetitions. Knowing you've got a degree in higher education I assume you now the mathematical and statistical reasons why. My experience leads to me disbelieving my body feelings fully. That's why I recommend additional analysis and verification methods to everyone. Like video proof of actually reaching 11.30 rip.

I also maintain my pre drinking view of best body control showing huge difference in the last throw vs the first. And assigning much of the D difference to body control rather than what you were focusing on mentally. So far I have not tried to focus my viewing on whether you you were indeed getting the disc to higher speeds or not and spin not being measurable from this angle one focus point other. Flying by the seat of my pants I assume (big mistake but a conscious one at that being tired and a little drunk and lazy) that the disc flew faster with the left pec hit focus due to better body control. Not what you were focusing on. Because despite yourfailed D wise effort of hitting beyond the right pec you weren't hiting far enough past it. And tht alone will mke the world of difference.

Like Blake said in the other current thread a 4" difference makes all the difference in the world. My very limited success in my own throws supports this finding. And that snap with late acceleration with conformist (hehe) body position with proper timing _is_ the most difficult thing in DG to learn and also achieve in actual execution of a throw. Unless your head game is weak. To bad for me I'm so far SOL with the execution part so i can't act as an authority speaking from experience on all counts and outdistancing you.

You should worry that an older than you guy slowing down his nervous system with beer with plentiful injuries is gaining on you with D with conformist form and timing effort failing in execution somewhat ;-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Aaron_D » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:07 pm

Please try not to make hasty conclusions either way based on this test until dozens of repetitions.


I know I am guilty of this as well as others. Its hard when you feel something click in the field you want to share with others asap and often you are wrong about what is is that changed and made your throw better.

Like Blake said in the other current thread a 4" difference makes all the difference in the world.


I know...its just that my 4" is in the opposite direction of what is being expressed in the snap thread. I shared this in a way that was less than gracious.

i can't act as an authority speaking from experience on all counts and outdistancing you.


I think this kind of humility is needed and often not expressed enough by myself as well as others. (*this is not me saying "whatever works" and anyone who has paid attention to my threads knows I do not advocate a "whatever works" mentality), However, I do advocate vigorous skepticism.

You should worry that an older than you guy slowing down his nervous system with beer with plentiful injuries is gaining on you with D with conformist form and timing effort failing in execution somewhat ;-)


You have always worried me JR! :lol: 8) :D
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Banzai » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:23 pm

I am no expert, and you're throwing about 100' further than me on average. I'm chiming in because the throws at the beginning of this vid look a lot like me when I'm trying to get it in to the right pec. I'm averaging about 330-360 with an occasional 380. My problem (I believe) is that when I try to get the disc in to the right pec, I lose the feel of late acceleration (I have to pull earlier to get the disc there). I'm basically strong arming it. As a result, I'm not getting my leg/hip power onto the throw. I also don't feel as strong at the hit when my arm is that far ahead of my shoulders.

Those later throws look like you're getting a LOT more of your shoulder rotation and arm speed onto the disc. You're clearly "slinging" the disc from the left pec. There was a time back last season when I was pulling really late and I was hitting 380'- 400', but I was slinging the disc from the left pec, I was no where close to the right pec. I thought I was doing it wrong. :?

Anyway, I'm really interested in seeing how this resolves because, I'm kind of confused. Here's a guess about timing: strong arming it maxes out at about 350'-375', slinging the disc maxes out at about 425'-450'. The guys who throw 500' are doing neither.

Take that FWIW, but I wanted to express that I've experienced a similar phenomenon (albeit not at the same scale!).
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby JR » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Aaron_D wrote:You have always worried me JR! :lol: 8) :D


Tush eyyyyyy!!! Read touché :-P
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:35 pm

Banzai wrote:Here's a guess about timing: strong arming it maxes out at about 350'-375', slinging the disc maxes out at about 425'-450'. The guys who throw 500' are doing neither.


I agree that strong arming doesn't yield anything, but I suspect that slinging with good timing could make 500'+. I think Aaron is really close to it, but I don't know enough about the fine tuning like Blake does. I know Blake talks about late acceleration and timing and Aaron is pulling late and has a lot of the other things necessary, so it really comes down to timing in the throw. Perhaps pulling in a little tighter or holding in tight a little later is going to be the answer, but I can't say if I can't experiment myself.

Aaron, maybe you could try that. You're coming into your left pec and out again, try just holding into your left pec a little longer so that instead of that feeling that you're pushing to your left and falling to your right, you're directing the force forward away from you.

take a look at what Avery is doing and make sure you look at the normal throws on the hyzer or flat lines and not the distance stuff. By holding in a smidge longer, you might get a little more speed or power behind your revolution and the expulsion of the disc.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Aaron_D » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:09 pm

I will definitely try that. So basically start the hit at the left pec but try and hold on to the disc longer?
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:14 pm

Aaron_D wrote:I will definitely try that. So basically start the hit at the left pec but try and hold on to the disc longer?


Yeah, you'd bring it back, but hold the pull until you're a little more squared up so the disc isn't coming out so far on the left side.

Make sure that you keep that should rotation pulling your arm, too. Or you'll just lose power.

Interested to see if that yields anything :)
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby inacmind7 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:31 am

I was watching that video and you seem to do something similar to me, which I always thought was bad. It seems that you aren't really pulling in a straight line, but keeping the disc close to the left shoulder on your transition from reach back to throw, which forces you to swing your arm around your body; therefore, never really getting too close to the right pec.

My best guess is that the reason why you were getting a better throw when you think of getting close to the left pec is because you are getting the disc closer to your body than you were before. When you were trying to hit at the right pec, you were possibly fighting against your body to get it there, which resulted in less distance.

Perhaps try reaching back slightly out to the right and pull through in a straighter line so you can get the disc closer to the right pec. I tried doing this and it helped me out a lot because I was swinging my arm around my body. I felt like I was able to start getting closer to the right pec.

Of course, I'm no expert at all. Just something I noticed. Please correct me if my thinking is incorrect.
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby black udder » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:12 pm

I'm guessing too, here, but I think that the important thing is the power you generate once you stop your elbow and swing the forearm out. At least that's one important thing.

What Aaron appears to be doing is getting to his left pec, then stopping the elbow and swinging out with the chop. It's great power, but if you bring the disc into the right pec, you can see that you bend the elbow more, which, theoretically could generate more distance and more power on the throw.

I don't know what the difference in power would be though (if any). The only way to find out is to have somebody who can throw like Aaron try it out and see :)
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:50 pm

inacmind7 wrote:I was watching that video and you seem to do something similar to me, which I always thought was bad. It seems that you aren't really pulling in a straight line, but keeping the disc close to the left shoulder on your transition from reach back to throw, which forces you to swing your arm around your body; therefore, never really getting too close to the right pec.


Uh huh.

In fact he is swinging the disc away* from his body as he enters the power zone. The power zone should be the point where you rotate the fastest.

Think ice skater. Do they rotate faster with their hands in or out?
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Re: OAT ATTACK

Postby black udder » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:55 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
inacmind7 wrote:I was watching that video and you seem to do something similar to me, which I always thought was bad. It seems that you aren't really pulling in a straight line, but keeping the disc close to the left shoulder on your transition from reach back to throw, which forces you to swing your arm around your body; therefore, never really getting too close to the right pec.


Uh huh.

In fact he is swinging the disc away* from his body as he enters the power zone. The power zone should be the point where you rotate the fastest.

Think ice skater. Do they rotate faster with their hands in or out?


So it would appear that, while he's not coming in as tight as what you're talking about, my suggestion to hold the disc a little longer would be on the right track - that is staying in tight longer to release with more power, right?

I'll admit, I don't get all of your technical discussion - works for some, but not me, so I just keep waiting until you use words that click for me.
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