OAT ATTACK

[masterbeato]

i ain't touchin' that

[Aaron_D]

Oh plz SON!

[nohr]

What is the difference between hyzer flipping something and OAT? I know it probably has to do with keeping all the momentum along the same axis or not.

[Star Shark]

Precisely. Hyzerflipping is taking an understable disc <for your power> and releasing it with some hyzer and getting it to flip flat or over entirely. OAT accomplishes much the same thing and it can be done intentionally with good results but it generally means rolling your wrist off plane from your arm swing/disc trajectory. There are many other ways to get OAT though. Shoulders off plane with trajectory, suddenly changing the angle of your arm swing is fairly common also.

[Bradley Walker]

Sigh...

Your wrist is closed at release because your upper arm is moving away and the right too fast.

Will lead to

Poor snap
Poor accuracy
Nose up
inability to shape lines

[Bradley Walker]

Good Lord...

Look at Beato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoOi2Cg0dk8

See how his hand looks like he is backhanding someone, and his fingers look splayed after he *RELEASES THE LOWER ARM*?

His wrist is *OPENING*.

[Aaron_D]

1. I try and keep my wrist neutral throughout the entire swing. It may close at the last minute, but I try and keep it straight.

2. I dont buy into your wrist / lower arm theory.

With you arm moving at such a quick rate and with so much energy being stored up in your tendons and muscles, it doesnt seem like there is much to be gained by forcefully opening your wrist. All my wrist movement is incidental and I try and keep my wrist locked. This is further supported by highspeed video of Feldberg and by conversations Ive had with several pros. I certainly dont think this is the difference between a 430' throw and a 500' throw.

In fact, it would seem that forcefully opening your wrist would add extra variables into the throw that would lead to decreased accuracy and more difficult timing. Just as a note, I use a TON of wrist on touch shots and approaches where I am tossing the disc more like a traditional frisbee. I do this for the added touch it gives me on these shots. Driving is completely different. I hope none of this comes off as dickish. I really appreciate everyone's input and I hope it keeps coming.

[Bradley Walker]

Well... to be clear, Blake was the one who showed me the open wrist release. What I have told you is nothing different than what Blake told you. He calls your release a "slip" becuse the disc is never forced out the front of the hand. The disc always trails the hand in your form. I know lots of guys who throw this way... they can play as long they throw hysers.

Not to mention I just pointed to the video with Beato doing exactly what Blake described to me (and what I described).

How can you argue with that video? It is right there plain as day, and Beato is throwing as far as you with significantly less effort and body motion. Beato's lower arm angle opens significantly sooner than yours, resulting in an effective *open wrist* in the follow through. The disc is ejected from the front of his hand with his wrist open to the target *RELATIVE TO THE TARGET*.

No one said you are supposed to throw your wrist open, in fact it is supposed to *tendon bounce open*. It is a matter of the opening angles of the lower arm with a firm wrist to get the bounce. Your lower arm never opens to the target. You are releasing out the back of your hand.

As far as your response sounding "dickish" I do not take it that way. It is truly no skin off my nose. I will say, however, that I find it odd that you post video after video asking for continuing scrutiny, yet you actually make no real changes in the part of the throw that counts *THE HIT*...

In fact, you continue to focus on elements that seem to have no positive improvements at all.

Please post videos of you throwing an anhyser with something like a Wraith, Teerex, Destroyer, Boss, etc (better yet a Predator).... I would like to see that. A real anhyser, where the disc goes 30 degrees to the left and cuts back hard to the right. Open wrist release (or open lower arm release---whichever you prefer) and hard open finish is essential to be able to throw an anhyser with something relative stable that will actually bank to the right ,which is an easy way to learn to throw 500' with 430' power...

As far as what this pro said or that pro said (even Feldberg) I still go back to the Blake form modeled by Beato and say that their technique is superior (feel free to pull up some vieo of Cam Todd or Walt Haney for reference---even Ron Russell). Feldberg, while being a great player, has a technique that suits his game, but I do not see it as being the model to copy.

[Bradley Walker]

Here

Two frames a millisecond apart

Lower arm cocked, elbow forward, wrist closed


Lower arm opened almost *90 DEGREES* from previous frame


From frame one to two:
The lead shoulder has barely moved.
The elbow has moved about 6" to the right
The hand has moved nearly two feet.
The "ejection slot" of the hand is nearly pointing at the target as the disc became too heavy to hold.
The disc is rolling to the index finger side of the hand, and the release occurs.

Finally

See the little concave angle in the back of the wrist? That is caused from the *bounce* in the wrist at the hit. Remember the fishing pole?

Keep in mind, Beato was hitting "soft" here. Not hard.

[Aaron_D]

I will get some anhyzer drives up as soon as I get a chance. You are right about continually posting videos, but my form has changed dramatically.

From here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaoAWr_gYxA
To here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4fo1o_ExDA

You must see a difference...

As far as I recall Blake's advice about the disc slipping was to open my wrist more...I didnt take it as more wrist extension at the hit, but a more wrist open orientation throughout. His main criticism was that my hit was not out right of my right pec but closer to my left pec and generally early. I too take Blake's advice above all other's including the top players, but I just never felt the wrist extension concept work in any way for me like I did with every other concept Blake pushes...weight forward, plane preservation, acceleration, right pec stuff...etc.

When you say front of the hand what exactly do you mean?

I dont necessarily think beato is throwing with less effort than me up to the 380' range which I can hit very easily. After 380' Im feeling diminishing returns galore as I can hit 350' from a standstill with my SOLS, 380' with a one step, and 400-415 with my full run up and a grunt. Im hemoraging energy when I try and red line. Something is breaking down but my ability to hit those other distances with relative ease leads me to believe somehow there is something in my timing or weight transfer that is robbing me of my power. I just cant figure out what it is. Blake seemed to think it was that my hit was early, but I changed that and while my throw became much more efficient and balanced I didnt get any overall gain in D.

[Bradley Walker]

Well, upon further examination I realize that the reason you cannot open the angle well is because you never close it.



Look at this position. The disc is like 15" from your chest when, in the Beato picture, Beato is nearly touching his pecs with the disc.

Then here (one frame later):


I will correct myself somewhat. You DO actually achieve the proper opening position (arm to body angles similar to Beato), but since you never closed the angle of the lower arm, you do not achieve the "two feet in one frame" lower arm acceleration that Beato does.

You are literally slingling your slightly bent arm around with your shoulder. It is no wonder you do not "believe" in lower arm acceleration, you appear to throw with almost no hinging in the elbow at all. You kind of crook your arm and just whip it around with your shoulder in a wide arc. I think we have discussed this before... and I said the same thing then too.

Also, note that all the really good acceleration in your throw was *BEFORE AND AFTER THE HIT* not *AT THE HIT*. You can tell this by looking at the frame by frame distance of movement. At the hit you arm barely moves, the frame and after the hit accelerate tremendously, only to see the hand *SLOW DOWN* at the hit.

These are all things you can plainly see for yourself...

Hey, if it works, use it... but there is nothing to be gained by looking for a "magic bullet" of convention, when you really are not conventional. I can show hundreds of "into the hit" positions of top pros and they look nothing like you... You are out of position for a conventional top player, it is just simple. You can argue semantics all you want.

[rehder]

KJ on a 330 hole

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfrHwFV4 ... re=channel

notice how close he gets the disc to his body. Im becoming more convinced that there are two central parts. One is the ever elusive timing, and two is getting the disc close to your right pec during the throw, if you do the latter you will still easily be able to throw decently far without good timing. If you only have the former, you will most likely be limiting yourself in distance.

The reason why Feldberg still throws far without getting it close to his chest is because his timing is impeccable.


BTW. basket in the clip is just slightly right of the bushes in the center/left part of screen, disc used was most likely max weight flick

[Bradley Walker]

That is exactly how I one step. I push the disc away from my body, crank up, and drop the dics in close and open the arm as fast as I can.

Who is this?

[emiller3]

Those are excellent videos, they capture the disc pull and lower arm acceleration in ways words cannot.

[rehder]

Karl Johan Nybo....danish pro