High Speed Camera: Drive

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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby JR » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:58 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:Look at the hand action through the hit. The hand is holding the disc on the "other side" of the disc (opposite the thrower) and the hand *revolves* from the 9 o'clock (as seen from the top relative the 12 o'clock target) to nearly 2 o'clock completely on the other side of the disc at the actual release.

Due to this revolving around the rim of the disc, the disc is *ejected* from the hand in a rotary fashion (like rolling the disc down the arm).

This creates the rotary acceleration around the disc itself or the "disc pivot".

This man is not throwing the disc (as would be indicative of throwing the *CENTER* of the disc), he is slinging it more along the lines of the way one would throw a hatchet. Using the rim of the disc as a lever itself (like the handle of the hatchet and the weight of the center of the disc as the head/counterweight of the hatchet).

The rotation around the rim causes the disc to jump forward in space with very little spacial motion from the hand itself (in fact the hand nearly needs to slow down or change direction slightly to allow the disc to travel around the hand). Luckily, the disc pivot occurs right before the apex of the lower arm swing which provides both a linear "slow down" and an instantaneous change in direction.

Think of the hatchet throw.

Couple the lower arm acceleration to that rotational acceleration, and you have two stacked accelerations that occur simultaneously.

Holy crap!!! I have been missing that. It is not one single acceleration, it is two coupled. Neither are exceptional without the other. I have discussed both, but never coupled the two.

My God, that is it.... I have never seen good form combined with camera work show this any better. Marvelous. I think i am freaking out a little.

Somebody do an overhead shot now.

PS: I need to go back and look at the MDR 3000 slow mo again. I know he does all of the above well.


That lower arm acceleration coupled with pivoting the disc is also helped by the left leg push, hip twist shoulder turn. Each should be still producing energy as the disc is pivoting between the index finger and thumb. This vid of DCC shows the disc pivot very well. Although there is the kinetic chain and different starting times for each of these motions they overlap and are on for quite a while. Including the disc pivot and rip.

The wrist snap from closed to open does IIRC add about 10 % back to front linear speed to the disc. So you saw right it not only seems to add speed to the disc but it really does.

I can't Tommy at all. Hurt my deltoids last year and never had the body control to accelerate well topping at under 200' without roll. With roll 210'. I'm a por subjector overhead work. Thumber is occasionally shorter.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:29 am

DCC wrote:The funny thing is I feel like I'm only a little off on a bunch of things.


I believe that. Dan mentioned wrist extension, which I'm sure will help, but from watching all those videos, it really does just appear that it's a timing issue. If you can get the timing down, you'll be in pretty good shape. That just takes practice. If you tack on some good wrist extension, then I'd guess that you'll be adding some good distance to your throws.

One thing that I saw in a couple throws was the disc coming out a little early. They're not bad throws, but as Dan had said, if you can keep the disc in your hand until late, then you can add some distance that way, too. It was only about a 1' difference between the two rip points.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:21 pm

1. You are not all the way into the power zone. You should be tighter to the chest later. You swing in too soon. Watch the rear view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Zo1wXVCVs#t=1m38s

The disc is closest to you at as it passes your rear shoulder. It should be closest to you as it reaches the right pec. The move into the right pec is the power zone, and it traces an arc that centers over the lead knee. The forward rotation point for for the body is represented by a shaft that goes up from the ball of the foot, through the knee, through the forward part of the pec, up past the right ear. Through this shaft is where you rotate.

Also, by rotating the disc inside so much at the beginning you have more momentum going away from your pec than coming into your pec. This makes it harder to pull in tighter to the body later in the throw.

Looking down from above the power zone pulls in a straight line (pointed at the target) until it reaches the arc that is directly over the front pivot foot. The center of the arc is the knee which is over the ball of the foot. The better placed the arc, the better the foot pivot. Get in front of it, no leg drive from the rear leg, get behind it, get jambed.

2. The rear foot should also be pivoting. It drives the arc. It is like both feet screw into the ground simultaneously. I throw ball-heel-ball on the front foot (see Avery vid below), and drive the ball of the foot clockwise on the rear foot. Blake can pivot on his ball of both feet simultaneously.

3. Because your power zone is too soon (or too far rearward), you are slightly rotating behind your front knee, and it is starting to jamb your leg straight slightly...but you catch it every time very nicely (you really have to look for it---but it is there).

Look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Zo1wXVCVs#t=0m41s

Because of this ever so slight jamb (and you are over extended with a little too long lead step), you really never get your ass into it. Literally. You cannot pull close and DRIVE OUT HARD with your back, hips, butt, calves, using the ground for more leverage. This is because of the pivot point being slightly too rearward as explained. You are all swing.

4. Notice your rear foot. It just flies up... no contributor at all to the hit. You do a very nice outward move, one that should be admired (most people love that high leg finish), but I think I could get at least 50-70 more feet of power if your leg came up as a result of *drive* from the ground through the power zone not from pure swing (you have very nice swing).

5. You have a good snap. Good thumb lock and good disc pivot. I would not mess with that.

Bottom line is that you have a very "pretty" swing. One that is very well timed with all the elements. If you better used the power zone you would have more power.

Instruction:
Imagine a hula hoop just slightly bigger than your shoulder width. Drop it down to just below your nipples, and set your bent arm on it. Flex your bicep so it feels like you are holding something heavy toward your chest. Set the "frame" of the elbow. It follows the shoulder. Now shift the hoop (and everything else---you need to go with the imaginary hoop) forward until it centers just to the aft part of your lead knee (over your thing muscle) which is bent to accept your weight. You will notice your rear foot will rise up slightly off the ground to get into this position. This the forward point of rotation, better known as "weight forward".

Now swing in and out of this arc location moving your weight to your rear foot (letting the hoop rearward to follow the weight) and back to front. You are rocking forward to aft and then rotating into the forward point of rotation. Your rear foot will rotate when you rotate over the forward point of rotation. You will notice you can twist the rear foot harder and harder the faster you try to move the hoop. Your front will want to pivot in the same manner. Flex your bicep, hold it hard against your chest. Swing faster and faster in... then explode out like you are trying throw a cinder block with your feet driving the rotation.


Massive power zone power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iff8S0Q-DAY#t=4m28s
Look at his feet.

Also massive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2RNcy0_qo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2FHambrickMemorial2009&feature=player_profilepage
Look at his feet.

Notice the complete absence of momentum at the finish. Almost no more than the average step forward. Every single molecule was converted to rotation in an instant.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Damn Bradley. Nice analysis. Let's see, where do I start....

First, I think you're dead on in your analysis of me not getting any push off my back leg. I definitely don't get much push off the back foot and I think you're on to something when you my stride is too long. It's hard to get any push when my front foot is so far out in front. It's also harder to my weight forward with my front foot so far out in front. I'll definitely get out in the field and mess with my run up.

I'll reply to the rest of your post when I get a chance.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby JR » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:38 am

Bradley Walker wrote:Notice the complete absence of momentum at the finish. Almost no more than the average step forward. Every single molecule was converted to rotation in an instant.


Since the beginning of aerial combat pilots have known that speed is life and managing it best often makes the winner. Pilots also know that you can exchange height for speed converting energy. That same conversion of energy, in our case movement direction AKA momentum, is true and crucial. Converting back to front motion into rotation is the largest power source in a throw and you do it like Bradley described with legs. For an article better wording than "a shaft that goes up from the ball" may be more appropriate. :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:26 pm

This evening's field practice. Not that great of practice....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8LaFqkkOH4
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby black udder » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:59 pm

leave that back leg down until after the hit, then let your follow through pull it around. If you kick it up just after the hit, it should follow around nicely.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:25 pm

DCC wrote:This evening's field practice. Not that great of practice....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8LaFqkkOH4


don't change anything until I get a camera. I can explain how to start To understand your throw but I can do it in 10 minutes on video.. It will take months to document all the theory in print (which I do plan to do).

I started to do it this video this morning and my camera will not do it. I think iam going to buy a casio in the morning

just wait, stop making changes until then... Your throw is too good to mess without a method.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:32 am

I was going to take the day off anyway. My arm is sore from the two straight days in the field, then doubles last night. Good to hear you're getting the camera. Can't wait to see your video instruction.

However, I did tinker with my throw a little last night at dubs. I found my arm wasn't relaxed enough prior to the hit. When I loosened my grip and arm, then tightened at the hit I was throwing just a far with a lot less effort. I didn't get out into the field to throw distance, but my throws during doubles felt more efficient. Thanks Aaron for the tip. Just take a look at how relaxed Jesper Lundmark is before the hit. That's what I was trying to replicate. Of course I'm still not getting my elbow forward as much as Jesper or getting the disc close enough to my right pec, but it's a start.
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