High Speed Camera: Drive

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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby black udder » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:54 pm

bcsst26 wrote:The snapping of a towel sounds like something I will try when I get home. See if I can do it. I think I have gotten this when throwing the last couple of times but couldn't put it into words. The disc just took off. It is all of these little "tweakings" of my form that are making the difference. I am pretty much still throwing from a standstill but probably will for a while until I feel like I have it and build up more consistency. Anyways thanks for putting things into words. I will see what it gets me tonight and will probably ask more questions tomorrow :wink:


Remember that test I laid out about pivoting with your hands by your sides to feel the rotational power? keep that concept in mind when you test with the towel. It's almost like you just let your arm swing out with the disc until it's starting out in front of you, then you pull and the grip comes shortly after it. Thus, you end up pulling really much, much later than I ever thought. It also makes it much easier to get high arm speed right before the hit. Timing is difficult, but you can see how it works.

Also, as a self-discovery tip, if you find yourself spinning on your plant foot so much that you're looking back at your throw (meaning that your back leg is in front, I believe that you might be spinning too much. I'm experimenting, but I think that if I keep my back leg held behind me until around the hit, then I seem to get more on the disc and better aim. I find myself standing motionless on the tee pad instead of getting flung off the end. Feels more like I'm transferring the power to the disc instead of going with it.

Not sure if that's right or not, but it feels better.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby bcsst26 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:44 am

I wasn't able to get out and throw last night but I did try the towel snapping. I have to say that I could get it to snap about the same as if I was actually just trying to snap a towel. So I guess that is good. I have noticed the same thing about pulling later and later. It is hard to get out of your head but over time my pull has gotten later. Last time out I was pulling a little to early. Toward the end I made sure to get good rotation with the shoulders and this lead to a later pull which made a big difference. I need to repeat this and try to get it even later and see what happens. I have a feeling that I will be throwing just as far if not further with less effort. It amazes me how little motion actually needs to go into this. When first throwing from a standstill I thought a large lower body rotation, a larger upper body rotation, and a large pull. Now I am thinking that the motions are much smaller and defined. I am thinking that it actually doesn't take much movement at all for the disc to take off. It is just a combination of small movements that lead to a distance throw. Not sure I am right but I am sure someone will correct me otherwise. :wink:
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby black udder » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:48 am

I think you're finding out how much timing affects your throw. You can put small, small together for a good throw, but you can also put big, big together for a huge throw - but that big, big is different timing.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby bcsst26 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:48 am

black udder wrote:I think you're finding out how much timing affects your throw. You can put small, small together for a good throw, but you can also put big, big together for a huge throw - but that big, big is different timing.


That is probably it. I think I need to work on small/small for a while though until I get more consistent. This when done right easily gets my fairway drivers over 300 and my rocs close to 300 so who knows what big/big would bring.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Banzai » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:54 am

bcsst26 wrote:
black udder wrote:I think you're finding out how much timing affects your throw. You can put small, small together for a good throw, but you can also put big, big together for a huge throw - but that big, big is different timing.


That is probably it. I think I need to work on small/small for a while though until I get more consistent. This when done right easily gets my fairway drivers over 300 and my rocs close to 300 so who knows what big/big would bring.


Compacting your form will make you more efficient with your technique for a more effortless throw. After you can add run-up, reach-back, shoulder/hip turn for more D. It's really cool to see that you were throwing hard out to 350' and then start doing it with almost no run-up and very little reachback. It also helps you see the difference between a throw that goes far because of speed, and a throw that goes far because of snap.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:11 pm

Dude, you have great form.

Look over the Aaron video thread...

Look at the Beato snapshots I posted. You need more lower arm cocking/uncocking focus (or pull close release---in tight to out to the target). You might get more out of it than Aaron.

Other than that, I would not touch a thing.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:30 pm

Thanks Bradley. Like I said before, I feel like I'm close to being able consistently throw 400+. I definitely don't want to overhaul my form at this point because I've become pretty consistent off the tee. I've been looking at my videos and it seems like I get the disc close to my chest, but because my torso and shoulders are a little late, the hit comes a little too early.

BTW, I forgot to post the footage I took from AM Nationals. Here is Holes 1 and 2 and the drive on three on day 2 at AM Nats: http://www.youtube.com/user/mhtoomes#play/all/uploads-all/1/bfUQ7jofj8Q.
It should be fairly obvious, but I'm second to tee.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:34 am

The great thing about adding more cocking and uncocking/acceleration and lower arm focus is that I think you will find it *adds* directional focus by making the action more linear. The more the arm cocks and uncocks correctly more "straight line" the thow becomes. If you look at the best players they almost appear to throw a javelin line past their chest. This is achieved by the arm cocking in tight and then fully releasing.

Lesser players, on the other hand have much more arcing throws that are much wider around there bodies.

It is much easier to point a javelin...

I have found, for me personally, that my whole body action is much more "linear" now that I focus solely on creating a cocking motion and as much lower arm uncocking acceleration late in the hit as possible. There is no need for a lot of turning, twisting, X stepping etc as all I am trying to do is set up to release the elbow. As a result my accuracy is sometimes off the charts... I am not bragging, but on days I get set to hit it right, I can hit super tight lines.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:49 am

DCC wrote:BTW, I forgot to post the footage I took from AM Nationals. Here is Holes 1 and 2 and the drive on three on day 2 at AM Nats: http://www.youtube.com/user/mhtoomes#play/all/uploads-all/1/bfUQ7jofj8Q.
It should be fairly obvious, but I'm second to tee.


Wow, kid maybe you should be teaching me...

Positionally, you are *outstanding*. I mean stellar.

Your timing could lag/explode a little more, but as I said before I believe that working on hinging your elbow and unhinging your elbow focus will create more explosion at the disc all by itself. I predict you will learn to "push off" you back foot/left hip better. Right now you kind of raise up early onto your front foot without really ever getting pushed off.

Think of what it would take to drive a 100 lbs heavy bag 10 ft across the room if you were to hit it with the back of your hand at the hit position. You back foot would dig for traction so your back hip could snap into your lead hip.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby inthedrift » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:31 am

Nice shooting in the vids. How'd you do overall in the tourney? Also curious what course was being played in the video.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:04 pm

The video is from AM Nationals (aka US Am DG Championships) at the Toboggan Temp Course in Kensington Park in Milford, MI. I finished 31st out of 143.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby inthedrift » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:31 pm

Nice! While I'm no expert, I agree with BW that your form looks very clean, very smooth and solid. IMO getting the disc in tighter (like BW said) is really the only thing I see that you could improve. I can't wait until my form looks good enough to post some vids. :mrgreen:
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:20 am

Man, look at that disc pivot at the release... that is stellar.

Wrist closes in, opens, as that happens the disc rolls down the hand and comes off the thumb lock with the wrist open. Not a tick of wobble.

eHe is leveraging the *edge* of the disc... not throwing the center of it. I believe that is the trick to achieving a true ejection of the disc. Everyone notice.... The disc almost appears to pick up speed at it starts to leave the hand. THAT IS SMASH FACTOR kids.

Add some more pre-load into the acceleration, and you are going to kill it.

I wish I had taught you that... just goes to show, some people just do it.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Toomes » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:11 am

Bradley Walker wrote:Think of what it would take to drive a 100 lbs heavy bag 10 ft across the room if you were to hit it with the back of your hand at the hit position. You back foot would dig for traction so your back hip could snap into your lead hip.


Never thought about it like that. I'll have to try this out because I know I'm not going much push off my back foot right now.
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Re: High Speed Camera: Drive

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:19 am

Look at the hand action through the hit. The hand is holding the disc on the "other side" of the disc (opposite the thrower) and the hand *revolves* from the 9 o'clock (as seen from the top relative the 12 o'clock target) to nearly 2 o'clock completely on the other side of the disc at the actual release.

Due to this revolving around the rim of the disc, the disc is *ejected* from the hand in a rotary fashion (like rolling the disc down the arm).

This creates the rotary acceleration around the disc itself or the "disc pivot".

This man is not throwing the disc (as would be indicative of throwing the *CENTER* of the disc), he is slinging it more along the lines of the way one would throw a hatchet. Using the rim of the disc as a lever itself (like the handle of the hatchet and the weight of the center of the disc as the head/counterweight of the hatchet).

The rotation around the rim causes the disc to jump forward in space with very little spacial motion from the hand itself (in fact the hand nearly needs to slow down or change direction slightly to allow the disc to travel around the hand). Luckily, the disc pivot occurs right before the apex of the lower arm swing which provides both a linear "slow down" and an instantaneous change in direction.

Think of the hatchet throw.

Couple the lower arm acceleration to that rotational acceleration, and you have two stacked accelerations that occur simultaneously.

Holy crap!!! I have been missing that. It is not one single acceleration, it is two coupled. Neither are exceptional without the other. I have discussed both, but never coupled the two.

My God, that is it.... I have never seen good form combined with camera work show this any better. Marvelous. I think i am freaking out a little.

Somebody do an overhead shot now.

PS: I need to go back and look at the MDR 3000 slow mo again. I know he does all of the above well.
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