Driving ridicule take 2

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Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:15 pm

Ok, so since the last time I posted something in here, I've worked on a lot, and improved my drives and overall game quite a bit (thanks to everyone on this site who discuss, post, and share). The last time I put a vid up on here I was just beginning to take my game more seriously. In those vids, and these vids as well, there are two people:

Jon the black guy, and me Chris, the white guy. It's the easiest way to tell us apart =P

So last year, here is what we were hitting, and here is what we are hitting now.

Last Year:
Jon - 270-290
Chris - 225-240

This Year:
Jon - 300-350
Chris - 275-295

We do a lot of practicing, watching vids, reading the guides and practice techniques, and our overall game has greatly improved. Jon is hitting golf D with much more accuracy and disc control, and I'm getting more distance with the same accuracy I had with little distance. Speaking only for myself (since I'm posting), I just can't seem to break this ceiling of 280ish...I've tried a lot of things but it just screws my drives up so much I fall back to comfort zone. I'm at the point now though that I seriously just want to rebuild my drive completely just to see if I've hit my max, or if there is indeed some more D to squeeze out of me.

When I compare my drive videos from last to these ones I can notice small improvements, but I really want to see more.

I feel I can put a disc on a good flat line and hold it, I can flip an understable disc up at times for some extra D, but not much control, and I've thrown enough putter rounds to get an aviar out to 200+....

SO, whatever hammering anyone can do on these vids is greatly appreciated. I will throw out the caveat that the last shots (from behind) were at the end of our session and we were pretty run down at that point, so there wasn't a lot of OOMPH in the drives =P

Thanks - Chris

This years vids: http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=109890267266&h=iTPfw&u=A3Sp-&ref=nf



Last years vids (for comparison): http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/djext1/DG%20courses/?action=view&current=jonacris.flv
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby Beetard » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:33 am

Chris, your form is starting to look great, especially on that last drive.

Looks like Jon also suffers from the problem I have; leaning forward so much I almost fall on my face when I throw.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:53 am

honestly, the way you throw it looks like you should be getting more distance.

That said, it has to be a few things that's keeping you from getting more. If you look over to the Snap 2009 thread, you'll see Blake has a list of 7 things you have to have to get to 350'. Check that list.

1. You might not be really pivoting your hips and shoulders for power. I'd guess that you're pulling through from the back of your reach back, thus you're strong arming it.

2. Don't actually pull until the disc is around your right pec area. It's a late pull and feels weird, but that's where the best power you will get comes from.

3. Probably no wrist extension and weak snap. You need that little bounce back then rip and extension to really throw snap onto the disc.

4. When you reach back, you reach back inside and then when you pivot, you pull the disc around and it's coming out way early. You need to try and get the disc into your right pec area before your chest comes around. It really looks like a sling effort but if you stop the video when the disc is coming out, you'll see your arm is across your chest and the disc is coming out before you get to any wrist extension area.

Bright side is the throws look to be nose down, you have your left arm down and appear in control. Jon is getting some nose up hyzers. I like what you've got going, you just need to add some snap and you'll pop over 300' in a hurry.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:52 pm

black udder wrote:
1. You might not be really pivoting your hips and shoulders for power. I'd guess that you're pulling through from the back of your reach back, thus you're strong arming it.

2. Don't actually pull until the disc is around your right pec area. It's a late pull and feels weird, but that's where the best power you will get comes from.

3. Probably no wrist extension and weak snap. You need that little bounce back then rip and extension to really throw snap onto the disc.

4. When you reach back, you reach back inside and then when you pivot, you pull the disc around and it's coming out way early. You need to try and get the disc into your right pec area before your chest comes around. It really looks like a sling effort but if you stop the video when the disc is coming out, you'll see your arm is across your chest and the disc is coming out before you get to any wrist extension area.



1. Yeah, I've been trying to adjust this, and sometimes I know I'm strong arming it, and usually wind up with OAT when I really try to crush it.

2. I'll work more on this to try and get the timing right.

3. I've been trying to concentrate more on what my wrist is doing lately too. For a short while I was curling the disc up a lot and was getting a good snap, but I knew that was pretty much a 'no-no'. For big drives I've been keeping the disc on a flat plane with my wrist as much as possible to avoid this, and sometimes I hit it, and sometimes I don't. I'm playing around with where to open the wrist a bit for that 'snap', but timing has been an issue. With what you said about releasing too early that may help with it when I'm thinking about it.

4. So should my shoulders be more square with my target upon release? Because I do know that I tend to hit my release point a little short of square.


As for jon, that probably isn't the best example of his drives...that was indeed a big hyzer shank. He generally does a pretty good job of hitting good line drives, that shot was more of the exception than the example.

Also, I have been following the snap 2009 thread along with a couple others, and while I somewhat 'get' what is being discussed, when I try it it just feels very awkward, which I know happens, but just saying. Only been playing around with that stuff a couple of times now...so it will probably just take some more work.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby black udder » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:10 pm

It's tough to explain because a lot of getting good snap requires timing. Basically, you're going to just guide your arm from the reach back into the right pec drill stage, as soon as you get there, you pull. At that point, your chest is still about 90 degrees away from the target (check out Dan's 1st throw analysis, that first hole). As you pull, when your elbow gets pointed towards the target, you stop it for a second just to start your lower arm swinging out. Your wrist should be lagging behind a bit because of the speed of your arm. As soon as your lower arm starts swinging, your shoulders start turning and your elbow starts moving around again. Your lower arm is still extending straight though. Basically, what happens is your body rotates in behind your hand and it keeps you from locking your elbow.

When your lower arm reaches the end of it's swing, your wrist will run out of "lag" and will pop to a position slightly beyond open (see the Distance Now video by Discraft to see how far to open the wrist). Once you get the feel for when the wrist pops, then you can add a little umph to pop it past open that little bit. That's a big timing thing.

Try it slow and see if you can find something comfortable. What you want is to use rotational force and back to front motion to add speed and force to your throw. All you're really doing is the right pec drill, so if you practice that first, then you should get an idea of when to pull and what it feels like, then add the stuf before it that will lengthen your throw.

I'm of the opinion you pull in a straight line from back to front, but I believe Brad has some convincing theories about pull around your body, you just need to make sure that you don't let your arm fly out and you pull until later. Otherwise you lose the momentum you've built.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:48 pm

Would you suggest then what is going on in this post (pic-wise)?

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=182984#p182984

Getting the proper timing (shoulders, wrist, release, etc) has been one of my big battles. These pics give me a better idea of this however.

Really, what I would love to see, would be more slowmo camera shots from above. I saw the one that someone posted and it was interesting to see from that angle. I'd love to see more good form throwers capturing that shot :)
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby JR » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:02 am

More leg speed with less sole to ground area with plant foot toes pointing 90 or more degrees away from the target and a harder hip twist will help. So will a harder push from the left leg because you are a bit weight back. That can be helped by not kicking the right leg right at the hip. If you didn't kick to the right standing upright then leaning to the right you'd plant about right if you would bend both knees like you would at the time the regular throw plant step lands. I promise you you're nowhere near your D limit. It's amazing what form changes do to D with relatively little or no added power generation. Naturally more generated power plus a better form will double the joy.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:03 pm

ok, been taking in whats been said here, and watching my vid and comparing it with other 'good' drives on youtube and I discovered something. This may be something that has been pointed out already, but in comparing with many others I noticed a big difference:

In my drives, I found that when my plant foot hits, I'm at the far point of my reach back, then I pull forward on through. Now, when I compare that to other peoples vids (with good form and D), I find that when their plant foot hits they are at just before 'the hit'...somewhere in the middle of or just before of the chest...but it's like one big motion when the foot comes.

I think this is definitely something that could be robbing me of power, and one of the many 'timing' issues I think I fore sure have. Is this a decent observation? I'll be playing around with it this weekend to see if it does anyway =P
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby black udder » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:30 am

you need to plant before you can pull. I suspect that a lot of the players you're seeing aren't really reaching back that far. I know Dan in his videos doesn't reach back as far as, say, Barry does.

I agree that's a big timing thing though. Watching dan, you can see that as soon as the plant foot hits, he's converting that momentum into the throw. If you pause at that moment, then you basically rob yourself of that momentum.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby black udder » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:39 am

Chris, here is your problem:

Image

See how early the disc is coming out? You need to turn your right shoulder back to point at your target and then keep pulling the disc on line with the target a bit more. If you watch Dan's driving video, you'll see a point where he says "just by delaying the hit from here (moves disc) to here you can get something like another 60' or 100'" or something like that.

Your shoulder is turning too quickly.

As for Jon, he's doing the same thing, letting the disc release too early. What makes his form look odd is that while you are standing balanced on your plant foot when you pivit, he's standing on both feet and leaning forward and off balance. he's probably getting a bit more wrist extension and snap than you which is getting him more distance. I think you have a better base though and should be more consistent/accurate down the line.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby Mmyersdisc » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:26 pm

why am I not seeing you guys at monday and tuesday best shots?....honestly if you would try to make it out to league you would get some pointers depending on who you are teamed up with...just gotta ask!!! Im not that great (I can throw about 400-450 flat ground) but I wouldn't mind helping you guys out....I have release issues but thats becuase I build my momentum up to quickly at the hit...if I slow things down and get my smoothness back that helps with timing issues...
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:14 pm

Work schedules man....tough to get out to most of them most of the time.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby djext1 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:48 pm

Ok, I think I have begun to understand something about my throw that is robbing me of some power, and since working on it, I'm now beginning to not 'force' it as much as just doing it. Becoming more comfortable with it I mean. What I have noticed is this, and maybe you guys can tell me if I'm on the right track or not:

The way I was throwing before, I discovered that I was dropping my elbow at the point the disc starts moving into my chest, and as the disc is coming across I begin turning my torso and shoulders, and then releasing shortly after it passes the right side of my chest... Once I noticed this, a lot of things discussed on this board began to click into my head and make sense, including some problems I have had in the past.

I think this definitely was the reason for some OAT problems I have had, and would also account for some of the early release problems I have had.

Since this discovery, I have been keeping the elbow pointed at the target, up until the disc gets roughly to the right pec region. At this point, my shoulders are turning towards the target and the elbow stops pointing and the lower arm slingshots out and I'm releasing more in front instead of 'alongside', where it was before. I haven't gotten out to measure any distance increases or not, but I will say, that I had a star wraith which used to turn over a bit, then fade back left slightly before. Now, I am punching it out much faster on a straight line with not much fade at all. A few of my other discs are doing the same thing now. Which leads me to believe I'm getting more on it than I was before. I can definitely feel more 'rip' as the disc leaves the hand than I was before, that is when the timing is all right anyway.

So, on the right track with this?
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby JR » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:16 pm

djext1 wrote:Ok, I think I have begun to understand something about my throw that is robbing me of some power, and since working on it, I'm now beginning to not 'force' it as much as just doing it. Becoming more comfortable with it I mean. What I have noticed is this, and maybe you guys can tell me if I'm on the right track or not:

The way I was throwing before, I discovered that I was dropping my elbow at the point the disc starts moving into my chest, and as the disc is coming across I begin turning my torso and shoulders, and then releasing shortly after it passes the right side of my chest... Once I noticed this, a lot of things discussed on this board began to click into my head and make sense, including some problems I have had in the past.

I think this definitely was the reason for some OAT problems I have had, and would also account for some of the early release problems I have had.

Since this discovery, I have been keeping the elbow pointed at the target, up until the disc gets roughly to the right pec region. At this point, my shoulders are turning towards the target and the elbow stops pointing and the lower arm slingshots out and I'm releasing more in front instead of 'alongside', where it was before. I haven't gotten out to measure any distance increases or not, but I will say, that I had a star wraith which used to turn over a bit, then fade back left slightly before. Now, I am punching it out much faster on a straight line with not much fade at all. A few of my other discs are doing the same thing now. Which leads me to believe I'm getting more on it than I was before. I can definitely feel more 'rip' as the disc leaves the hand than I was before, that is when the timing is all right anyway.

So, on the right track with this?


The new form improvements in flight sound familiar so congratulations.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Driving ridicule take 2

Postby black udder » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:57 am

yeah, sounds like improvements :)

Now blow off work early and go down to league and get some in-person validation :P
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