I finally took video of my drive...fixin' time!

[josser]

I finally got around to video taping myself in the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQNDlcnRaI

I was delighted to see that I had a laundry list of bad form things going on that I could easily identify:
- Nose up from (among other things): weight not over plant foot and too high of pull line
- Being a total strong-arm guy (starting acceleration in the pull WAY too early
- too much forward momentum after throw
- Back leg drags instead of pushing to get weight over plant foot
- I can't see it here, but SkaBob tells me I release the disc more than letting it rip. I have been concentrating on trying to let it rip out but a later video in this post shows that I'm still letting go
- my body rotation all happens at the same time instead of hips leading

I've been reading through the snap and form threads and it seems that working my way very slowly through the right pec drills is the way to go. Too many things to try to fix at full speed so I need to go back and start at the beginning again. I know that Blake has a list of things that a person needs to be able to do before bothering to work on snap, but the systematic nature of the working back from the hit/right pec drills seems like the best way to go. Let's look at his list:

Blake T sez: before attempting to work snap you should:

1. have a sound, fundamental grip (wrist down, etc.) [I use a three fingers on the rim grip for drivers, but as I mentioned I let go instead of allowing it to rip]

2. be able to throw with shoulder rotation (not everyone does) [I have no idea. Somebody can tell me]

3. have a pull line that keeps the disc close to the body. [Got it most of the time]

4. have no problems with getting your weight forward (unless you are content only throwing hyzers). [I thought I was doing a good job of this until I saw the video]

5. be able to throw without "strong arming" the disc. [this is the main reason I am starting all over again]

6. be able to throw without jamming your pivot (aka allowing for yourself to clear the hip). [not without working on my weight forward issues]

7. be able to throw without significant OAT. [Most of the time]

So I hit the field and started working on stand still throws and trying to focus on doing a better job on the things I have identified above. Here are some videos to comment on and tell me what you see. I added some comments for the problems that jump out at me. I am not doing anything more than standstill (with accidental small steps) throws until I make some good progress on the problems that are plaguing me. Most of these throws came out with some anny despite my trying to keep them flat, so any suggestions as to how to flatten these out would be most awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yk6njbEs_8 - trying to keep from rotating or reaching back and just trying to get a "feel for the acceleration".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBOKcDg5PG8 - Rotating back for a stand still throw. I'm sure that leg kick is counter-productive. How to fix it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMdVXlsUx8c - Filmed from below (nowhere to do it from above). Rotating back for a stand still throw. This shows that I am letting go of the disc and not letting it rip. Argh!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu7twjmPrVI - Trying to put a bit of oomph into a stand still throw with a pre-rotation instead of reach back. I end up taking a small step in my effort to add oomph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACSTESLDNqU - Doing a standstill with reach back. It doesn't look like a do a very good job of accelerating late or keeping the disc close to my chest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU0WUm1jEdU - I was trying to do a standstill with reach back, but it turns out I was taking a step.

[josser]

Ok. We're on day 3 of putting in about an hour at a time of field work. At the end of day 2 I finally figured out how much kicking up my back foot helps get my weight forward (like MB tells us). So here is some video of me trying to do this with a mostly stand still (or small step) throw with a twist instead of reach back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34v6phP80

Here are the problems that I see and folks can please feel free to offer pointers and comment on what they see. I'm having lots of trouble with nose-up and almost everything is coming out anhyzer so if there are problems that I don't mention that are contributing to either of these, please let me know.

1. I'm rolling my wrist under. I can't tell if it's happening during the throw or after, but it is happening.

2. Point of acceleration. In the first throw it looks like I start accelerating a bit early. In the next throw, it looks like I try to go slow as I come from the twisted position and then "explode" from the point when my shoulders are perpendicular to the target. At that point it looks like I kind of show the bottom of the disc (giving it anhyzer angle) and then start my acceleration. The disc takes off way left (rip comes too late) and with lots of anhyzer.

3. Am I starting with the disc too high? I recall that Blake said this is a good thing to do if you like nose up (which I seem to). Ack.

4. How am I doing with my weight shift forward? What about the timing of the weight shift?

[mafa]

Ok. We're on day 3 of putting in about an hour at a time of field work. At the end of day 2 I finally figured out how much kicking up my back foot helps get my weight forward (like MB tells us). So here is some video of me trying to do this with a mostly stand still (or small step) throw with a twist instead of reach back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34v6phP80

Here are the problems that I see and folks can please feel free to offer pointers and comment on what they see. I'm having lots of trouble with nose-up and almost everything is coming out anhyzer so if there are problems that I don't mention that are contributing to either of these, please let me know.

1. I'm rolling my wrist under. I can't tell if it's happening during the throw or after, but it is happening.

2. Point of acceleration. In the first throw it looks like I start accelerating a bit early. In the next throw, it looks like I try to go slow as I come from the twisted position and then "explode" from the point when my shoulders are perpendicular to the target. At that point it looks like I kind of show the bottom of the disc (giving it anhyzer angle) and then start my acceleration. The disc takes off way left (rip comes too late) and with lots of anhyzer.

3. Am I starting with the disc too high? I recall that Blake said this is a good thing to do if you like nose up (which I seem to). Ack.

4. How am I doing with my weight shift forward? What about the timing of the weight shift?

In no way I am expert, pretty much in the same learning phase as you are. Comments and my thoughts:

1. Roll-under saves your elbow if it is after the hit. On the other hand if your shoulders are more or less square to the target at the hit, shoulder joint rotation will take most of the stress from the elbow extension hitting the limit just after the hit. That's why I like your approach to have the torso twist for the right-pec drill. If you don't have your shoulders turned to the target at the hit you will break your elbow.

2. If I learned correctly, try to accelerate through the hit. Good focal point is to try punch someone of the same height in the throat at 3 o'clock (9 in your case). This will also assure that you have pure follow through plane (for a level shot). Referring to point one, it might be a good idea to have wrist roll-under after the hit so that you hit the imaginary person with edge of your palm.

3. Don't think so. You are pulling in a horizontal plane although looks like there's anhyzer follow through in the first throw.

4. The first two throws have the best weight forward as you can also see from the results. In the last one your weight is little back and the disc is heading up. Kick harder!

I totally agree that the back foot kick is extremely important. My first two days on the right-pec drill was basically learning how to kick as hard as possible with the back leg at the correct time to counter the elbow chop action moving your weight back. And of utter importance is of course that the back leg drives your whole kinematic chain. That's where you get the most of the power for the throw.

To sum it up: I think you are on the right track. Doing this drill really is good for your stroke. It teaches you late acceleration and getting weight forward. Not to mention that you _will_ eventually get a taste of the ever-sought-after, mythical and glorious S-thing. It's like cheating.

Matti

[Beetard]

Hey Josser, I'm really having problems with my foot pivot. You make it look so easy, any advice?

[josser]

3. Am I starting with the disc too high? I recall that Blake said this is a good thing to do if you like nose up (which I seem to). Ack.

3. Don't think so. You are pulling in a horizontal plane although looks like there's anhyzer follow through in the first throw.

Hey Matti. Thanks for the thoughts and feedback. Can you clarify a bit on what you see with regards to the anhyzer follow-through. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out why most of the stuff is coming out anyzer. With that first throw I can see that the disc is not flat at all when it comes across my chest as compared to the other two throws. But you mention follow through and I am sadly having trouble seeing any differences there.

[josser]

Hey Josser, I'm really having problems with my foot pivot. You make it look so easy, any advice?

I didn't realize that my foot pivot was sweet! I went back through some of my videos seeing if there was any difference between when I get a good weight shift vs. not. Basically trying to see if putting some effort into kicking up the back foot was causing good foot pivot. But it usually looks about the same except for when I do a full run up and end up rotating on the ball instead of heel sometimes. My guess is that because my ankles are so shot, my body protects them by whipping my foot around as soon as my lower leg starts to go.

[Beetard]

I think jamming my pivot is due to leaning forward when I throw, because when I try to pivot when not actually throwing, I can do it fine.

You stay very upright when you throw and you pivot easily.

[josser]

I think jamming my pivot is due to leaning forward when I throw, because when I try to pivot when not actually throwing, I can do it fine.

You stay very upright when you throw and you pivot easily.

I am trying to get out more over top of my pivot foot so I might start joining the jamming team before too long. We'll see what happens once I get my back foot kick up really working for me.

[Beetard]

your drives look pretty money to me.

Your weight appears to be over your right heel to me, so I think nose angle problems are due to hand and wrist factors.

Have you tried cocking your wrist down slightly or gripping the disc higher in your palm?

[josser]

your drives look pretty money to me.

Your weight appears to be over your right heel to me, so I think nose angle problems are due to hand and wrist factors.

Have you tried cocking your wrist down slightly or gripping the disc higher in your palm?

For which videos are you thinking my weight is getting over my lead heel? The more recent one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34v6phP80 that has the three throws where I am seriously concentrating on kicking up my back heel? Or the earlier ones that I posted in the first post of this thread?

I try to cock my wrist down as much as possible, but I haven't been able to sort out if it stays cocked through the hit or not. It's on my list of things to try to sort out along with when my wrist roll under happens.

Any good suggestions for a midrange grip that is comfy above the seam? I haven't tried to throw with the disc above the seam but I can certainly imagine that it would help. I just tried out (sitting on my couch) a bunch of midrange grips (some power + some control) that get the disc above the seam comfortably but the only one that seems to work with my hand is a birdie grip where my index and ring finger are on the rim, middle on the flight plate and pinkie curled against my palm.

[Beetard]

You're starting to lean forward on the vid you just posted and your pivot is not as good as a result.

I liked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBOKcD
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU0WUm1jEdU

Just power grip it above the seam in your hand.

I just quit disc golf (no joke) because I have really torn up my right leg.
If anything hurts or doesn't feel right when you throw, you need to do nothing besides try to fix that until it is fixed.

Good luck with your game. Having a throw that is easy on your body is more important than throwing far.

[josser]

Let's hope you get some good healing time and decide to come back and develop a style that treats your leg kindly.

When comparing the earlier and later videos, I really see what you mean by the rotation. The earlier videos also have a lot more rotation way beyond the hit, which the nice videos of back foot kickers like MB and mafa don't have. I will have to really dance the fine line between getting the weight forward enough to get nose down, but not too far forward so that I still get the good rotation.

You're starting to lean forward on the vid you just posted and your pivot is not as good as a result.

I liked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBOKcD
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU0WUm1jEdU

Just power grip it above the seam in your hand.

I just quit disc golf (no joke) because I have really torn up my right leg.
If anything hurts or doesn't feel right when you throw, you need to do nothing besides try to fix that until it is fixed.

Good luck with your game. Having a throw that is easy on your body is more important than throwing far.

[Beetard]

I'm going to invest the time I was formerly using to play disc golf into my career.

Once I am well into that, I want to try some martial arts as a hobby, and maybe that will help me develop enough coordination to throw a disc the way I want to if I should start disc golfing again.

I had my second to last league tonight and shot a -12 (very easy course though).
I gave away most of my discs. People were like, "you just shot a 12 down and you're quitting?"

One more league night to get through without tearing my leg off.

I've hung onto a pro orc if anybody really wants it.

[josser]

Day 4 of working on my throw (RIP Beetard '09)

I posted a video of my in my basement working on stand stills where I am kicking off my back foot and trying to "get" the timing of my acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf5yCRtGvSE

I notice a few things, please feel free to comment.

1. I am pivoting on the ball of my foot instead of heel. I am finding that it is very difficult to pivot on my heel when I give a good kick with my back foot. I notice that mafa is able to pivot on his heel http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13793 but I'm having trouble doing so.

2. My pull line is not super straight, but much straighter in some that others. It looks like it is at its straightest when I manage to keep the elbow in and in the same line with my wrist.

3. I played around a bit with various starting stances: from very small bend in the knees and upper body fairly upright to "athletic ready stance" being up on the balls of my feet with my knees bent and my upper body over my disc. I noticed that I naturally seem to start my acceleration a bit later when I start in the "athletic ready stance", but am even more inclined to rotate on the ball of my foot instead of heel.

4. I am getting my disc only to my right pec (left pec for you RHBHers) before the acceleration happens. Something to work on.

5. The later throws look fairly lazy, like I'm not trying to put very much oomph into my acceleration.

[JR]

Don't try to force the wrist as far down as possible early in the arm motion. It will tense up the arm muscles if you're anything like me and you ain't. I've got artificial anatomy in the throwing arm. When you start pushing the wrist down as the elbow starts chopping it's moving down when the bones of the arm start to push the wrist up as it's coming from bent back (acceleration induced) to neutral. The muscles are at their strongest in the middle of their motion range which means the longer you keep the wrist unbent down the more force you can put ito pushig the wrist down fighting the anatomy. That's pushing the wrist up during bend to straight motion of the wrist.

your drives look pretty money to me.

Your weight appears to be over your right heel to me, so I think nose angle problems are due to hand and wrist factors.

Have you tried cocking your wrist down slightly or gripping the disc higher in your palm?

For which videos are you thinking my weight is getting over my lead heel? The more recent one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34v6phP80 that has the three throws where I am seriously concentrating on kicking up my back heel? Or the earlier ones that I posted in the first post of this thread?

I try to cock my wrist down as much as possible, but I haven't been able to sort out if it stays cocked through the hit or not. It's on my list of things to try to sort out along with when my wrist roll under happens.

Any good suggestions for a midrange grip that is comfy above the seam? I haven't tried to throw with the disc above the seam but I can certainly imagine that it would help. I just tried out (sitting on my couch) a bunch of midrange grips (some power + some control) that get the disc above the seam comfortably but the only one that seems to work with my hand is a birdie grip where my index and ring finger are on the rim, middle on the flight plate and pinkie curled against my palm.