technique fix day 5 - question about holding on too long

[josser]

This is a follow-up to my previous technique fixing thread: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13952

I'm not too sure what the protocol is here. Is it better to create a new thread or just continue with replies to the old one? Since I have a very specific question about disc coming out way past where you are aiming, I thought I would start a new one.

Video 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-VBA5owCGk
Standstill with twist instead of reach-back. I'm really concentrating on accelerating hard and hanging onto the disc as long as possible so that it really rips out instead of me just letting go. This results in shots going about 90 degrees past where my body and foot placement is originally aiming. Does this indicate that I'm not accelerating hard enough? Or trying to hold on too tightly? Or to put it another way...what should/would I do if I wanted the disc to go in the direction perpendicular to my original foot placement, but still have the disc rip out?

Also, I was comparing using to the off-arm to help with the acceleration. Boy, I sure noticed how much more acceleration I got when I started with the off arm straight out and then brought it in as part part of the acceleration.


Video 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBpejLwG0rk
This was my best rip of the day, I really felt the disc getting pulled out of my hand. Camera is at about 45 degrees to the left of the original line created by my feet and shoulders. The disc comes out around 60 degrees or so past where my foot and shoulder lines would say I was aiming it.

Video 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsFclW-UE3Q
Trying to incorporate some reach back on my standstill. Still trying to hold onto the disc as long as possible so these discs are coming out way past the aiming line from my feet and shoulders. Throwing 3 gazelles and one of them went 250 feet which is an average good drive for me with run up. Hells yeah! How's my acceleration timing here? If I am going to try to get some help from my off arm as I am should I be letting it swing while fully extended when I bring the disc to my chest and then being it in to get all sorts of great acceleration starting at the point where my disc is at my pec?

As usual, any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

[rusch_bag]

You are throwing with your wrong hand. Cheater.

[josser]

You are throwing with your wrong hand. Cheater.

Ack! That must be why the right-pec drill is so challenging

[Blake_T]

a few things. ouch. hehe. sorry, had to give it a chuckle. i went through a phase of doing this in my first year but it was caused by something completely different.

basically, your shoulders are moving too constant/fast all the way through. the elbow extends when the shoulders pause their rotation. for you this is happening waaaaaay late, which is why the throws are releasing waaaaay late.

since it's a bish and a half to actually try to slow your shoulders down...

a few things that may help.

#1. start with your weight on your back foot. you are starting with your weight over (or just behind) your front foot.

#2. aim. nothing you are doing leads me to believe you are aiming at all where you think your body is aiming.

#3. when you obtain visual contact with your target, lock your head in and force your head to stay pointing at the target line. right now, your disc is going right where your head is pointing, which is waaaaay off the left.

#4. find what should be the release point. basically, chest open ~45 degrees, disc out in front of you with the hand at ~3 o'clock orientation (see brad walker's explanation). attempt to get the disc into this position.

[black udder]

you're pulling your elbow across your chest and past your target while you still have the disc. You want your elbow pointed sorta towards the target when you stop it to force your elbow to chop. That will send the disc fairly towards the target. I'd try some soft approach type shots with a loose grip like that to get the idea, then build up rotation, power and stronger grip.

[Blake_T]

you're pulling your elbow across your chest and past your target while you still have the disc. You want your elbow pointed sorta towards the target when you stop it to force your elbow to chop.

the chop doesn't happen with the way his shoulders are going.

part of that is due to lack of aim and head control. the start of his throw is basically just a controlled spin around the front foot... rather than a push forwards towards a target. the end result is that there's no natural timing elements to the elbow chop, etc.

[josser]

Thanks Blake. Lots of good stuff to try there.

Somehow in all of this I have completely missed that a shoulder pause is supposed to initiate the elbow chop. I thought it was just supposed to be trying to stop the elbow, but the elbow pause needs to be the initiator.

As for the weight starting in the middle as opposed to on the back foot. I spent a lot of that day experimenting with where my weight started. I was going back and forth between starting with fairly neutral weight and the way over your back foot like climo in the FGCU clinic where he is doing the stand-still weight shifts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv76JEe1qUo

Weight neutral made it easy (obviously too easy) to make a good strong kick with my back leg and not mess with my timing. When I started with weight way back like Climo shows I was having a lot of trouble timing my weight shift with the rest of my throw. I got all caught up in Climo's weight shift video where to my eyes he is spinning on his pivot foot much more than he is pushing toward his target. Of course in the end I had neutral weight to start AND I was just spinning so two strikes for me.



Thanks BU for reinforcing the point about me totally missing the elbow chop. I was concentrating so hard on having good acceleration and having the disc rip out instead of letting go that I completely lost sight of what is actually causing me to aim at the target, the timing of the elbow chop and all the stuff that leads up to it. Blake's #3 is soooooo riiiiiiight...nothing I was doing leads me to believe I was aiming where I thought!



Lots of good stuff to try out tomorrow!

[Blake_T]

Weight neutral made it easy (obviously too easy) to make a good strong kick with my back leg and not mess with my timing. When I started with weight way back like Climo shows I was having a lot of trouble timing my weight shift with the rest of my throw. I got all caught up in Climo's weight shift video where to my eyes he is spinning on his pivot foot much more than he is pushing toward his target. Of course in the end I had neutral weight to start AND I was just spinning so two strikes for me.

you might try initiating it with a dig/pivot of the back foot rather than just a rocking push. it might only be like a 1/12th of a turn (30 degrees) but it can help really get your weight shift focused. this may or may not work at all.

Somehow in all of this I have completely missed that a shoulder pause is supposed to initiate the elbow chop. I thought it was just supposed to be trying to stop the elbow, but the elbow pause needs to be the initiator.

the purpose of the throw isn't to rotate your shoulders, it's to impart power/force on a disc down a target line. basically, if you focus on powering it down your target line, there should be a definite moment where the shoulders are (somewhat) parallel to the target... this initiates the start of the chop and your shoulders continue to power through the chop.

i think if you give a huge focus on aim, release point, and your head position a lot of this will clean up on its own. actually, focusing just on the release point will probably even correct your shoulders.

[josser]

you might try initiating it with a dig/pivot of the back foot rather than just a rocking push. it might only be like a 1/12th of a turn (30 degrees) but it can help really get your weight shift focused. this may or may not work at all.

What do you mean by dig/pivot of the back foot?

[Blake_T]

if you watch a baseball swing, they start the swing with a pivot on their back foot... then after contact drive the ball with a pivot on their front foot.

basically, if your back foot is facing sideways at the start, rotate it somewhat forwards before you push off.

[josser]

if you watch a baseball swing, they start the swing with a pivot on their back foot... then after contact drive the ball with a pivot on their front foot.

basically, if your back foot is facing sideways at the start, rotate it somewhat forwards before you push off.

So the hips start rotating first and then the push off is really used to drive the hips forward and through the rotation? (Sorry my baseball hitting is very rusty)

[Blake_T]

the back hip starts to rotate a bit first. notice i say hip and not hips.

i wouldn't worry about it too much, it's more for something that can help timing a bit if your upper body is a touch early (such as yours is). however, it is leg-oriented, which is a much smaller part of power/distance than most people would like to know

[josser]

Blake, thanks for all your patience and help. You are a scholar and a gentleman!!!

I'm very excited to have so many CLEAR productive things to work on. I will be insanely excited when any of this clicks at all. Whohoo!!!

[Blake_T]

np. the keys with the pec drill are to just relax and don't try to throw hard unless you FEEL it when it should be happening.

focus on small goals with each throw. whether it be keeping your head focused on the line or trying to get the disc to the 3 o'clock launch position, etc. pick one and work on it until you feel it... after you have it down, start adding something else.

i think aiming should be your #1.

[Blake_T]

how is this coming along?