jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

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jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:05 pm

Now with added FUNK!

So we finally got around to filming some throws after we started working on our forms in January. I've gone from averaging 275' and maxing at 330' to averaging around 360-380' (with my max D discs) and maxing at around 400'. Turso's gone from... Well, 0 since he hasn't really thrown at all before to averaging a tad longer and maxing out at 410' (longest being 430'). (Filmed at 210 fps with a Casio EX-FH20).

Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxV8Qg-Nrcc

Wow. I never noticed how high my pull line ends, so that's why I'm not getting much nose down. Well, the disc is on line with the pull so if I can lower that somewhat it should work out better. I'm also not keeping too tight to my chest, at least not to my right pec. I'm clearly shooting from my left pec. Well, at least I'm releasing the disc in front of me. I also noticed I was rushing a bit when the camera was rolling, I'm usually a bit smoother. Any critique is welcome, though I'm not going to be able to work on my form in at least a week. I've got a competition coming up and I don't think I should touch anything before it. =)

turso: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXoE-IlXpBQ

Message from turso: I felt my form was off from its normal level since I've been having pain on my lower right hamstring area, none of the shots felt good to me, but I'd surmise it's not too far off to critique it. I've suspected my pivot isn't good, and this video seems to prove it, any other things you notice, please say so.

This thread is for the both of us so fire away!

EDIT: Here're the same throws at "Something"x and 4/7x. Was supposed to be 1x but my editing program must have spazzed, it looks sped up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bq08D5kg6U
Last edited by jubuttib on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby Parks » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:49 pm

You're trying to force your weight forward too much and dragging your back leg, and its part of what is pushing your shoulder and arm up at the end. This problem was easy to diagnose because I did (still do sometimes, bad habits...) the exact same thing, and it has messed up my off leg.

Make sure you are pushing off your back, and your hips shouldn't be trying to move you forward so much as just turning you. Your upper body's weight will get forward naturally doing this due to your run up. Take a look at any pros hips at the hit compared to yours, yours are way too far forward for hyzer or flat throws. Here's a good picture where you can easily see Climo's hips are behind his plant knee which is behind his plant foot: Image

Letting your hips rotate you instead moving you laterally will allow you to be stronger at the right pec position, will prevent injury, and will help keep that pull low if done correctly. It was the most obvious thing, and I would work on that first before working on timing. You'd be surprised at how many things that one thing will fix.

You turn your hips way earlier than most in your run up. Your first step in your X-step is like 150 degrees instead of the more common 90ish. I think its more of a preference thing but you could work on turning your hips slower. Feldberg was showing a bunch of people at a clinic here to do the 4 step run-up where a RHBH thrower would face the target squarely, and the first step with the left leg is at about 45 degrees, and then that just leads into a normal X-step. Footwork like this pretty easy to correct, so its not a big deal either way.
Last edited by Parks on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby Parks » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:57 pm

Turso is doing the exact same thing dragging his back leg and trying to force his hips too far forward.

He would also benefit by trying to be more balanced during his X-step. He is almost wobbling during it. His steps are pretty wide and have a larger left-right margin than most people. Smooth it out.

It also looks like he's about to roll his plant foot's ankle every time he drives. Yikes.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:37 am

Parks wrote:You're trying to force your weight forward too much and dragging your back leg, and its part of what is pushing your shoulder and arm up at the end. This problem was easy to diagnose because I did (still do sometimes, bad habits...) the exact same thing, and it has messed up my off leg.
My left knee was indeed a bit sore after that session.

Make sure you are pushing off your back, and your hips shouldn't be trying to move you forward so much as just turning you. Your upper body's weight will get forward naturally doing this due to your run up. Take a look at any pros hips at the hit compared to yours, yours are way too far forward for hyzer or flat throws.

Letting your hips rotate you instead moving you laterally will allow you to be stronger at the right pec position, will prevent injury, and will help keep that pull low if done correctly. It was the most obvious thing, and I would work on that first before working on timing. You'd be surprised at how many things that one thing will fix.
Thanks, will focus on this next week (if the weather allows).

You turn your hips way earlier than most in your run up. Your first step in your X-step is like 150 degrees instead of the more common 90ish. I think its more of a preference thing but you could work on turning your hips slower. Feldberg was showing a bunch of people at a clinic here to do the 4 step run-up where a RHBH thrower would face the target squarely, and the first step with the left leg is at about 45 degrees, and then that just leads into a normal X-step. Footwork like this pretty easy to correct, so its not a big deal either way.
This surprised me too, I had no idea I was doing it. It feels comfortable though and if it isn't causing too much problems I'll probably stick with it.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby JR » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:08 am

It seems you were trying to throw high distance annies base on the x step direction and planting the final step so far left. That much left placement of the right foot suggests some degrees steeper anny if you wanna keep every body part aligned for better consistency. The first throw was hyzer in the arm motion and the second anny despite being hyzer in the reach back.

A shorter plant step say 10-15 cm less helps you pivot faster around adding power. Your wrist rises as it starts to open. It is the natural motion caused by bones. You can fight it by pushing down hard and this helps to get the nose down. When your left leg drags and lifts up before the rip you won't turn to face the target as quickly and lose a lot of power. And it really hurts sideways accuracy consistency. You turned the torso so early that you hadn't moved the elbow far ahead of the right side failing to reach the right pec position. This forces the disc away fro the chest reducing snap. Leaning farther forward at the waist puts the heart as close to the target at the rip which really helps with getting the nose down. Look at Kenny.

The elbow is supposed to go far ahead of the side then retard sharply moving the created kinetic energy to straightening the elbow which bends back the wrist during the elbow chop. Which nearing the end of the straightening needs to also retard the wrist, that has opened passively plus actively simultaneously, so that the disc will pull itself free from pinky to middle finger. Then pivoting in the thumb lock the disc being pinched hard between the thumb and the index finger.

Turso: The same thing as jubuttib about not kicking forward with the right leg in the final step helps keeping the final step 30 cm shorter which suits your speed better considering the steep anny for max D with fast hard fading discs that flex out of anny. Great for distance not so for accuracy and control on tighter holes. Also like jubuttib try to get the elbow about as far as it will go before turning the torso closer toward the target than facing 90 degrees left of it.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby rehder » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:21 am

jubuttib wrote:Now with added FUNK!

So we finally got around to filming some throws after we started working on our forms in January. I've gone from averaging 275' and maxing at 330' to averaging around 360-380' (with my max D discs) and maxing at around 400'. Turso's gone from... Well, 0 since he hasn't really thrown at all before to averaging a tad longer and maxing out at 410' (longest being 430'). (Filmed at 210 fps with a Casio EX-FH20).

Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxV8Qg-Nrcc


It looks like you are throwing around you body, IE. strong arming it. This stage is where most players will plateau if they dont rework their throw to really hit it. You are using all your power but only a small amount of it is getting transferred into the disc. Check masterbeato's throwing vids, and you will see the massive difference.

Blake drew up four part timing sequence that showed what the arm/elbow had to do. I would say you arre jumping from 2-4 and skipping frame three. Which is basically getting your elbow more forward, and starting the acceleration at that point and not earlier.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:49 am

Yeah, I know. I'm going to revamp my form starting next week, but I'm not strong-arming it as bad as I used to. My shoulder, right pec and right arm got really sore when I was really strong-arming it. Lately since I changed a couple of things (including not using my arm as much) I haven't had any problems with it. Oh and just for the record, I'm not really using strength on those throws, at least not consciously.

But yeah, I'll start again from the ground up next week. I've seen the video (have it on my HD for quick reference) and seen Blake's timing sequence. My long history throwing lids is coming back to haunt me, I'm going to have to unlearn everything. =)
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby turso » Sun May 02, 2010 12:14 pm

Okay, went back to basics and started throwing from standstill today and got pretty good results. Getting around 400ft and bit over with DD, wraith and nuke with considerable consistency, but getting shorter results when I tried to do it with run-up, so gonna start with one step and build up from there =)

Thanks for all the critique.

And yeah I know nuke's too much of a disc for me still, but it's not mine, and even if it was it wouldn't be in my bag =)
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Sun May 02, 2010 1:23 pm

I'd say you got around 360-380' consistently and some went to 390-400'. But damn was it impressive to see.

I on the other hand didn't see much results. I got some feel of the snap from the right pec at times and started to get a hang of where I should start accelerating to get it to go straight. Also had one or two good standstill shots that went as far as my normal drives with run up. I was getting very good releases, everything turning much less than they used to, and later in the flight. Still, I got to around 390' only once, a bit disappointed. I also felt strongly that I was still over my pivot foot, and couldn't really get any action from my legs or hips. Still a lot of old, bad habits to unlearn. Also, I might have pulled a muscle, after one particular throw I got a sharp pain under my right pec and the corresponding point on my back.

Still, not a bad day on the whole.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 2:12 pm

390' is an achievement and nothing to worry about because you're already in a small minority with that D.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Sun May 02, 2010 2:39 pm

JR wrote:390' is an achievement and nothing to worry about because you're already in a small minority with that D.

I know, but I used to do it fairly consistently, now I got there once. Though this was to be expected, since I'm trying to revamp my drive. It's also starting to get to me how turso is getting better at a lightning pace (if he can get his run up working he'll reach 450-500' in a question of weeks, if not days) while I'm stuck unlearning everything I've known. I know that's the way it's supposed to be for a while, and the long term will make up for it, but still, pisses me off a fair bit. =)

I know it's a slow process, and I'm not doing myself any favors by getting sucked into trying to throw as far as I can at times. It's kinda hard to focus on the right pec drill while the dude next to you is ripping 400' drives. =)

Question: What sort of distance should I be looking for with the right pec drill, given a disc that'll fly straight for a bit and not just fade right off the bat?
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 4:06 pm

jubuttib wrote:
JR wrote:390' is an achievement and nothing to worry about because you're already in a small minority with that D.

I know, but I used to do it fairly consistently, now I got there once. Though this was to be expected, since I'm trying to revamp my drive. It's also starting to get to me how turso is getting better at a lightning pace (if he can get his run up working he'll reach 450-500' in a question of weeks, if not days) while I'm stuck unlearning everything I've known. I know that's the way it's supposed to be for a while, and the long term will make up for it, but still, pisses me off a fair bit. =)

I know it's a slow process, and I'm not doing myself any favors by getting sucked into trying to throw as far as I can at times. It's kinda hard to focus on the right pec drill while the dude next to you is ripping 400' drives. =)

Question: What sort of distance should I be looking for with the right pec drill, given a disc that'll fly straight for a bit and not just fade right off the bat?


Turso is unreal we're all jealous of him except maybe those that throw farther. I don't but I'm injured for life anyway and know that I'm not that athletic so I must limit expectations. Because my body can't handle the necessary training.

I haven't really done that many right pec drills as I've learned timing by thousands upon thousands of field practice drives. So I can't tell. IIRC people that have much more snap than me have thrown to well beyond 200'. Yo guys tell us what's your right pec drill distance. I'd like to know as well. It may be a good way to increase muscle power and get muscle memory for hyper spin practice I just started today. Because you can get more reps and concentration than with throwing close to 400' for three hours like today.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby turso » Mon May 03, 2010 5:34 am

I didn't go for the right pec excercise, tried it a couple of times but it didn't feel like my thing, just started with full pullback standstill(or whatever it was called again) and went from there and the timing seemed quite natural and the aim was true. With right pec I couldn't get the timing down and was pulling the discs to the right and it felt quite awkward for me, maybe I was doing it wrong or something :P
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby MrScoopa » Wed May 05, 2010 12:48 pm

It's only supposed to help you feel snap and get used to pulling hard at the right time. It teaches timing.

You shouldn't worry about distance or even accuracy it is about feeling the hit and integrating that feeling into your own throwing motion.

If you were spraying left and right then you were slipping, and rotating your upper body too soon. Both timing issues.
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Re: jubuttib's and turso's three and a half month forms

Postby jubuttib » Wed May 12, 2010 4:03 pm

Dammit! Went out to a course today, I haven't been ripping for a few days (probably way over a week by now) and everything just felt horrible. Could probably only hit around 250' at first, and even at the end of the day didn't feel anything when I threw, my longest being probably around 320'. THIS SUCKS!

Still, did manage a -3 round so a good day.
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