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PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:08 pm

*Updated 3-26-12*

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OP:
Finally getting back to health after sitting out the past year with injuries although Im 30lbs heavier now. It was fairly windy today straight left to right 15-20mph, so I had to adjust my angles and put a little oat on the disc to hit the line I wanted. Any comments and suggestions are appreciated.
First throw Pink 150g Star Teebird 370'.
Second throw Yellow 168g 11x Eagle 370'.
Third throw Pink 150g Champ Teebird 390'.
Fourth throw Yellow 168g 11x Eagle 390'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZVgloI7blI
Last edited by seabas22 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:53 am

390' Eagle is nice!!!! I'll get back to you later i don't have the time right now. I gotta sleep after four hours yesterday.

Have you tried which way you throw farther your current form or getting the elbow closer to the target before straightening the arm from the elbow? You have room to move the elbow to the right by about 10" at least i think. Just don't straighten the whole way from the shoulder to elbow because that may injure you for life and bad.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:35 pm

Thanks JR! I'm not sure what you mean getting my elbow 10" further right? The first shot was mostly hyzer and the wind killed it, but the others I was aiming kind of weird because of the wind, so my line from reachback to hit was more for anhyzer. Compared to my old form I feel more leverage and active wrist extension closer to my left pec. I'm also getting much better weight transfer and foot pivot now. :)

I put the last two throws up with some more slo-mo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqT8RgXaBLY
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:19 am

ARgh no time now either. I meant getting the elbow 10" closer to the target with the chest facing 90 degrees left of the target and only then straightening the arm. By chopping the elbow straight.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:40 pm

Your left leg ain't moving the Feldberg way to the right of the right leg meaning you'll lose power. The other way of not slowing down turning toward the target would be to keep the leg on the ground until the disc leaves. You lack some of the pause. That is try to get the elbow out closer to the target while you maintain chest 90 degrees left of the target orientation. You are running and planting anhyzer and having the arm move in a hyzer. That creates inconsistency to your throw.

Christian Sandström suggests that you should follow through symmetrically to your plant step. With your plant step you'll point your right shoulder at the target and after the follow through the left shoulder should point at the target. With a flat throw you should plant on the center of the tee running down the middle and have the follow through step land also on the same middle line. Even though that may be beyond the front edge of the tee.

For control drives you turn away too much in the reach back and for max power you turn too little. I was surprised by how little Avery Jenkins needed to use his hips and shoulders for 500-550' shots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs

Your arm pull accelerates early i'd compare to later accelerations as well. Like right pec. Some players around me throw from the left pec having the disc far away from the right like you do and one of them has thrown one of the longest shots in Finland albeit a little downhill. He's considered to have the highest exit speed of Finns but i haven't heard results of measurements. I'd compare to close to both pecs and far away from the left pec and close to the right pec as well. The latest version is used by the first guy who broke officially 200 meters and has thrown 217 m in NY in just a little wind which is insane. That kind of a throw would probably be a new world record if it were thrown in winds at a higher altitude. Chris Voigt is his name.

You'll turn around faster if your left arm moves faster than your torso once you start to turn toward the target.

Your wrist was down for most of the throw which tenses up the arm muscles slowing you down. The wrist probably collapsed up judging by decent upright posture and the arm pull line not gaining a lot of height from reach back to release. Unless the wind did something funky to the disc. Nose angle should be fiddled with. If you shorten the plant step by not raising the right leg from the hip joint toward the target you'll get more weight forward. If you raise the rear of the disc higher in the hand while keeping the front between the ring and index finger and push the wrist down in the end of the flight you won't throw as high. Unless you intend to and even then the disc is gonna behave differently.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:16 am

JR wrote:Your left leg ain't moving the Feldberg way to the right of the right leg meaning you'll lose power. The other way of not slowing down turning toward the target would be to keep the leg on the ground until the disc leaves. You lack some of the pause. That is try to get the elbow out closer to the target while you maintain chest 90 degrees left of the target orientation. You are running and planting anhyzer and having the arm move in a hyzer. That creates inconsistency to your throw.

I think this is why I feel like Im slipping, something in how I transfer weight and pause and something being early or late. But I'm not comprehending the first sentence about Feldy or is that what the Sandstrom quote below is talking about? I notice a lot of the top throwers keep their rear foot planted until after the hit, but I can't seem to get this, should I be trying to twist my hips/body around more with my feet or does this happen from the weight transfer?

Christian Sandström suggests that you should follow through symmetrically to your plant step. With your plant step you'll point your right shoulder at the target and after the follow through the left shoulder should point at the target. With a flat throw you should plant on the center of the tee running down the middle and have the follow through step land also on the same middle line. Even though that may be beyond the front edge of the tee.

I remember you translated this vid for me before, thanks.

Your arm pull accelerates early i'd compare to later accelerations as well. Like right pec. Some players around me throw from the left pec having the disc far away from the right like you do and one of them has thrown one of the longest shots in Finland albeit a little downhill. He's considered to have the highest exit speed of Finns but i haven't heard results of measurements. I'd compare to close to both pecs and far away from the left pec and close to the right pec as well. The latest version is used by the first guy who broke officially 200 meters and has thrown 217 m in NY in just a little wind which is insane. That kind of a throw would probably be a new world record if it were thrown in winds at a higher altitude. Chris Voigt is his name.

I'm not sure what you are saying in the first sentence? Know any good vids of Voigt?

You'll turn around faster if your left arm moves faster than your torso once you start to turn toward the target.

hurmmm.

Your wrist was down for most of the throw which tenses up the arm muscles slowing you down. The wrist probably collapsed up judging by decent upright posture and the arm pull line not gaining a lot of height from reach back to release. Unless the wind did something funky to the disc. Nose angle should be fiddled with. If you shorten the plant step by not raising the right leg from the hip joint toward the target you'll get more weight forward. If you raise the rear of the disc higher in the hand while keeping the front between the ring and index finger and push the wrist down in the end of the flight you won't throw as high. Unless you intend to and even then the disc is gonna behave differently.

I understand raising the rear disc in the hand and playing with nose angle. The wind was making things interesting out there, once the disc would begin to fade it would just drop out the sky, guessing the cross wind just pushed the disc down once the top of the disc faced it. I was aiming fairly high to try and get it to hold a long anny. I was also playing around with keeping the wrist stiffer like Avery said he does and this is where I was really feeling my wrist being active and being able to resist the discs momentum. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12748&start=15

I think you're onto something with the plant step, and this is where I get confused.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:35 am

Sorry i don't know of any slo mo vids of Voigt. Hyzernauts have made a vid called Kings Of Golf 2005 (narrated in German don't recall if was in English as well) where Chris is featured on some shots and he's partially visible in The European Open 2006 DVD.

Have you seen The Champions Way DVD by Feldy and Climo? There Dave shows a way of moving the left leg off of the ground that does not slow your body rotation down. You really should push with the left leg using leg on the ground or Feldy type of leg off of the ground. Push forward and if you can also twisting both legs to the right. That's almost impossible with fast steps though.

I meant that you are strong arming a bit. You accelerate fast once the plant step lands. If you were mellow with the arm muscles until the disc is by the right pec you may or may not throw farther. It seems to be individual so the only way you can know for sure is to try different points in arm pull where you slam on the gas.

Once the disc is past your left side during the pause you can accelerate the left arm motion from back to front to a faster pace than your body will turn once the pause ends. That way the weight of the left arm ain't slowing down your body rotation toward the target.

I've heard many people saying that a longer plant step at a faster running speed gives them a little more power. In my own testing i haven't really seen repeatable detectable differences. Only occasional changes. So i can't confirm or deny. But for control shots a shorter step has allowed me to pivot faster giving more D. Longer plant step does interplay with weight forward and here's one opinion about not being weight forward at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-5uHMoYJ6Q

Again there are pros and cons and it is a matter of practicing to defeat the cons for upright and weight forward throws. For ultimate D with Olympic level athlete power my current hunch (not seen measurements or done calculations) i'd think that the ultimate D would come from the added nose down angle of a weight forward throw at fast running speed. Making up a little with back to front weight shift for what is lost in body rotation speed from not being upright. Thus having more mass away from the center of the rotation being weight forward on average throughout the throw.

There is a but that i'd love to see someone measure. Most of the throw happens in the last inches of a throw. That means that it's more important what happens late in the throw. There having pivot and having the weight shift forward simultaneously may make up things more than on average throughout the throw for a weight forward form. Without measuring and calculating all sorts of things who knows?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:14 pm

Thanks JR! I'm getting a little better results now and feel like I changed it up a bit and not throwing as hard. I added a couple side views to an updated vid. Anything else you notice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJp9_zBSd0g
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:20 pm

Your left leg is still off the ground but not in a way that will negate the arm chop counter force that slows down your body rotation toward the target=lost distance. The steps are really long and they play a part in you being so weight back. Weight forward has the largest advantage in nose angle of the disc and since you throw so high (low reach back much higher rip point) you need all the nose down angle you can get. That is why for you being more weight forward would help.

Alternatively you could stay where you are with your weight transfer and raise the reach back height maintaining the rip height or vice versa depending on the better D. Preferably you should test both ways.

I'd test what slowing down a bit in the x step and making it a foot or a little more shorter will do and taking inches at a time off of the plant step length. For determining your best D at this time.

The arm starts the quick acceleration quite early in the throw. Have you had a chance of testing a later more explosive acceleration time?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:16 pm

I think I see what you are saying about footwork and weight forward and this is what I struggle with. Being a flat footed swimmer doesn't help me with graceful land movements...Im like a beached whale. I kinda did play around some later acceleration/ or I had a couple griplocks that nailed the big tree that I thought would have been like 450'+.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:22 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW0mSszATVM

I don't know if this is better or not. I played around doing some standstills and small two step throws and tried to make it more ball golf footwork but feels a bit weird. I was getting maybe 10'-15' further with the extra step. When I reachback higher I almost always worm burn.

The vid is mostly two steps with 150g Teebirds 310' and 180g Comet 280'. Also threw FH with a 177g Vector 270'.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby kern9787 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:35 pm

You're going to hurt yourself if you don't let your body follow through. When you finish, your rear leg should be coming to the front, even when throwing from a standstill.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Sun May 01, 2011 2:03 am

The first order of things is to stay healthy so that you can keep on practicing. You just got to do something to the foot pivot so that you have a proper follow through step. Shortening the plant step ain't gonna do it all but it helps a bit and it helps also with getting more nose down. The arm rise down from reach back to high rip is gonna hurt big time with the nose angle.

For control shots i'd pull more in a straight line. I'd reach off line only for distance throws. For a distance throw i'd turn my back on the target and all out risky pray and spray rips i'd turn the shoulder line even farther away. Do you have a resistance band? If you set it up so that your arm pull stays at a constant height and over the band all the time you're set. I recommend a tube because if you push down on a wide band it can stop your hand by grabbing it and all sorts of nasties are gonna happen. Just make sure that whatever is holding the resistance band in place doesn't fly on to you if you hit the band and you won't hit the front attachment point. Even with the disc. Planks are dangerous too as a guidance method.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby seabas22 » Sun May 01, 2011 9:39 pm

Explains why I'm so sore and why I broke my leg last year. I don't understand what I'm supposed to feel like in the feet. Is there another sport that best mimics BH footwork? My FH footwork feels natural like throwing a baseball or football.

I've got some Bodylastics bands. What are planks?
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Re: PLZ Critique

Postby JR » Sun May 01, 2011 10:39 pm

For example two by four inches tall and wide long wooden pieces that you can walk a guy off of into the sea from a ship. Or build a house out of :-)

No wonder your leg hurts and has broken. The twisting force on the right leg especially gets even worse from being flat footed if you have very grippy shoes. The ideal would be to find how much you can reduce the sole to ground contact while always being in control. Because you have prior injuries i would start low sole to ground contact area testing and practicing with stand stills. Here's a smooth form thrower that is good to mimick even in driving, He's won a world title in distance throwing and the last time i looked i think he was rated 1033: http://www.youtube.com/user/lcgm8#p/u/77/vHeMcsQdTLo at 10:13 you can see Jussi lean back with the weight and raise the ball of the foot of the right leg. Then he shifts the weight forward and steps through. This isn't the best video but the first one i found. On hole one in either the third or the second round with Jussi in the group that was being followed i think his approach was much better illustrated. But you should enjoy the whole competition anyway. Other people have good pivots and follow throughs of different styles in that video. Even team mates of Jussi.

Dancing, gymnastics and javelin might have similar motions to BH steps as well as martial arts.

For feeling i am looking for different things in training for different things. In competition mode i'm not thinking of the feet at all it must be automated. That's why field practice is needed -you don't want to be distracted from the task of aiming. For all out power i lift the need to be in balance and perfect control. You need both for the best result but there's the having and eating trouble with cakes as well as foot work. Yeah you could wind up with your foot in your mouth if you lose control :-) The easiest way to lose balance is to misalign running direction and planting position while planting and pivoting on a side of a single toe. The less ground contact you have the rounder the shoe area touching the ground will be. That means the least friction and fastest pivot if you are in balance and it takes all the chances of correcting for mistakes in the run up to planting position to tilted body at some joint and what have you. For any semblance of control for a ball of the foot pivot you need to have all the toes touching the ground so that you have the maximum amount of muscle power in stabilizing you. And correcting any misalignments. Heel pivot is more dependent on planting in the correct spot and not needing to correct anything.

The hip joint to knee to heel to toes angles are different between heel and ball of the foot pivots. Heel pivot angles and the used muscles are stronger so collapsing ain't gonna happen as often or easily. And if it would be on the way it would be easier to rectify if you can react quickly enough. And some reactions are automatic because as an upright standing species it's biological necessity to avoid falling so there are natural subconscious processes helping you.

The feel you are looking for is unobstructed flowing like water pivoting that isn't choppy or happen in stages if you use ball of the foot pivot. Stand still heel pivot is the same because the ball of the foot starts in the air. Running heel pivots come in stages and do have a jerking abrupt pivot (that's where the power increase comes from i think)but prior to that and after the transition from the toe landing to heel shift the foot needs to move without sticking to anything. There comes the need to stay feather light in the motions. And needing the movement control grace like cats or dancers. Being a former competition swimmer i get the lack of body control on land part. Wii Fit or other balance training is gonna help ever so slowly in my case. YMMV. I can't train that much because of the bum ankle. I'm on doctor ordered two week no DG and no excess steps break. Argh!!!

We have natural tees and slippery tees and snow and rain most of the year so slippery unreliable teepads are the norm for me. That is why i opted not to learn heel pivots around here because i slipped so often early in my career or the little toe hit raised obstructions and hurt and stopped the pivot and had me facing to the left of the target. Slippery conditions is the exception to not using super grippy shoes. That also means that i want to try to learn heel pivots eventually because they give a little more distance. That's the common experience of the best players in the world and has been measured and alluded to but published in the thesis of Öystein Carlsen. The caveat for me is that my bum ankle can't take many stand still heel pivots per day and x steps are even worse. It will take years to heal the broken tendon to possibly handle the stresses of heel pivots. Ball of the foot pivots stress smaller muscles and tendons from ankle area down more and risk the twisting of the ankle and the knee more even on good teepads. But i'm outta luck and stuck with that. No brace has allowed me to heel pivot safely so far. Although i just got an idea to test regarding that.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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