standing BH driving. critique please.

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standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:43 pm

Heres a video of my driving practice t'other morning. I appear to be headless, but never mind!

http://vimeo.com/35248368
Comments welcome.

I've been playing since last spring/summer, mostly sidearm, so its about time I sorted out my Backhand.
My own thought is I'm not getting my elbow forward enough, or reaching back far enough.
My trailing hand should be back out of the way, rather than forward.
I'm also a bit erratic in how far I reach back each throw, especially if I rush the shot.

These shots are with an aviar, ion, ion, viper, mako, comet, teebird, teebird, ascent, sidewinder, sidewinder.... possibly.
They are all going between 40 and 50 metres (130 to 165 feet?) slightly uphill, thrown flat(ish).
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JR » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Hello and welcome. Do you notice how much difference you have between the throws in following through? You go from not lifting the left leg up at all to taking a healthy step far enough and everything in between. You should absolutely have a follow through step in order to protect you from injuries and physical strain while throwing farther.

Have you tested throwing without pre waggling through the arm motions? I'm so familiar with it that i can keep most of the grip strength intact with it but it is not automatic. Many lose grip strength (accuracy, repeatability and distance) in the pre throw arm swings. It does help in arm control and explosiveness of the acceleration but i wouldn't wonder if you could also learn to get the most power without the pre throw motions. With better repeating of the angles from throw to throw.

At your distances putters are sufficient and drivers to much for learning proper form. Faster discs usually mask thrower errors. Putters in general won't to the same degree. Sure there are some putters that are so beefy that they won't flip even on fairly bad throws and some drivers flip from giving it less than a full smile. In order to get better use and distance out of mids and drivers i'd start practicing the x step. Many things will probably change with those so it's a good idea to post another video with x steps.

You are mostly flat footed and that messes up the throw and strains your body way too much. You are in serious risk of fairly soon to occur major trauma. Even half of the sole of the foot to the ground can be detrimental to the throw but it is way more safe than being fully planted. Both feet should pivot and there are two major types of pivoting. Heel and ball of the foot pivots. Top pros use a hybrid in the final step where the side of the toe hits the ground first and the sole to side corner of the shoe lands next until the heel is on the ground and then you lift the ball of the foot up and pivot on the heel. Walking forward in a follow through step coming back to the ball of the foot.

The farther away from the target the toes point the farther you can reach back. As long as you maintain form a longer reach back gives you more distance. Taking x steps will also increase distance. So will any forward going non tripping steps over stand still throws.

Your legs are planted in anhyzer fashion and your arm swing is a hyzer and some follow throughs are flat and some anhyzers. Misaligning movements is gonna hurt accuracy and repeatability even more than distance. A flat throw should have each of the steps planting the feet on the center line of the tee.

Search for the term pause here. You lack it. You start turning the body without a pause and then acceleration at the same time as the arm starts to move. Kinetic chain. Familiar? In many sports (each?) the movements of individual body parts should start in succession not at the same time. In disc golf weight shift notwithstanding nothing else than the arm should move once the final step has planted. Once you get the front of the disc to the left side your chest should point 90 degrees left of the target. And then it should stay at that orientation until the disc is passing/has passed (try both) the right side. And only then should the legs really work and the hips twist to the right with the shoulders turning even farther and then the elbow should straighten and then the wrist. Pivoting the disc and voilá.

Your arm starts to accelerate at full power from the farthest point in the reach back. Not everyone can keep on accelerating or even have the disc at top speed at the rip. Getting the elbow farther forward would help in accelerating harder in the end of the thrower. At least if you bend the elbow a lot to get the disc close to the chest. The closer the better as long as you don't tense up too much. Tense muscles are slow muscles. You are not trying to lift weights but move fast.

You push forward and up trying to jump forward with the left leg. You have a rising foot in the follow through. You should keep the pushing direction parallel to the ground. The goal is to turn to the right faster. That is multiplied with the arm acting as a lever. Power gets multiplied that is thus the speed increases. Jumping up is not exactly going to lift the disc that high enough to compensate for the power generation loss.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:13 am

Wow, cheers for that. Lots to do then!

I only just started doing the waggling, as I kept being told I was rushing shots, so I will happily drop them again.
I will do an x-steps video.
I will work on not being flat footed, and following through, and reaching back with toes pointing as far from target as possible.
The whole anhyzer, hyzer, flat arm swing, follow through etc. positioning isn't something I've not found a good explanation of yet, seen it mentioned but not explained. I think I see what you mean though, and will try to keep my movements in a straight line for flat throws.
Pause. I've read about it, will try harder!
Acceleration. I shouldn't be actively accelerating my arm until I've rotated my hips and got my elbow out, then accelerate through, and follow through?
Push round with the left leg, not up?

Cheers again, I think I know what I'm meant to be doing, I just can't tell if I'm doing it or not (not appears to be the answer!) :)
Last edited by andrewdouse on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JR » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:19 pm

Everyone has different physiology with different mixture of fast and super fast muscle cells and the speed of the nervous system varies too. When you learn better body control and gain more nerve speed and recruit some of the fast cells to become superfast your body has changed. That takes at least 3 months to even start properly. Form changes are likely to cause larger variations for a long time to come. That is why you should test when to start accelerating with the arm and when to pinch and how hard with the index finger and the thumb and for the sake of security at least the middle finger too. Those checks should be made with each form change and annually to see if your body or form have improved but you've been capped by the grip or unoptimal timing of the arm acceleration. Some beefcakes throw far and claim that pulling 100 % from the reach back gives them their best results. That is not my experience and that of many here. I'm certainly not physical so YMMV and you don't know where you are in that spectrum applied to disc golf until you try everything and see which way produces the best distance for you. Happy field practicing to find out your optimum form!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JHern » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:39 am

andrewdouse wrote:Heres a video of my driving practice t'other morning...


Damn, it's hard to throw when you're freezing your ass off!

Anyways, your form is not so bad, arms-, legs-, torso-wise. Based on what I could see in the video, I expected your throws to be going further than you stated (I watched first, read after). Check your grip, and make sure you're getting your index and middle finger under the rim very firm, and your thumb over the flight plate. Also, experiment with your timing a bit, delay your pull just a tad, step with your plant foot, and then pull.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:55 am

Thanks for the replies, I was out doing some field practice this morning, concentrating on leading with my hips, and it has made a difference. It feels better, and there is a bit more distance. I need to work on it though, as there's lots to put together. I'll post a new clip when I've got one.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:22 pm

Any improvement? There are some Sidearm drives here as well.

http://vimeo.com/35691853

Cheers
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby seabas22 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:13 pm

You have some work cut out for you and some throwing concept changes coming. It looks like you have a death grip on the disc with the wrist fully cocked before you even go into the throwing motion. You want to be looser with the arm, wrist and grip until the disc comes into the power zone(chest). Your wrist will get cocked or loaded from the discs momentum pulling the wrist back in the power zone when you delay the active pulling until late in the throw. Your arm/elbow is collapsing against your chest from reachback/backswing which is going to kill snap potential. Instead of reaching your arm back across your chest, keep your arm perpendicular to the chest and move your hips and shoulders back so your arm moves with them to the backswing. That should help you get your hips more into the throw and help you maintain width between the upper arm and the chest during the throw, so the elbow gets out in front the front shoulder. You start throwing early before the foot plants and your aim is going to change quite a bit toward your right or more backwards.

FH...your grip looks odd...are your finger pads on the flight plate or the inside rim? You are changing the disc's plane from almost vertical to horizontal during the throw which is going to produce a lot of nose issues. Looks like you are pulling a bit early and not really getting your body into the throw. It's hard to tell from the angle, but I don't think you are leading with the elbow much either.

Check out snap2009:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13291
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JR » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:28 pm

The camera was tilted but it looked like you were only throwing anhyzers forehand. FH is almost all wrist. Only for longer drives you should reach back that far. FH needs exaggeratedly fast wrist snap. So the throw should accelerate violently in the end of the throw. You start out at the exit speed with the arm. And the arm motion isn't quick. I'm not masters aged and i got tendon pain for months from forehanding. Not everyone is built for it but i have had tendon trouble around the elbow. Surgery included so i may have previous damage that makes me more susceptible to problems. Finger print on the rim please.

BH you throw fairly flat with the arm, walk in a straight line (flat shot requirement for best consistency), follow through with the arm below the plane of the initial arm swing angle (OAT anny) and follow through step way right of the line you were walking on (anny). Throwing flat is the most difficult and fastest teaching shot so i'd put each step on that line. Follow through included. The arm needs to move on the same lane well beyond the rip as if it was guided by a board through which you can't drop the arm. Warming up and stretching properly with the upper back helps retain mobility so that the shoulder blade doesn't get resistance from the back muscles.

Keeping the back leg down will create more power and help with turning toward the target consistent for fewer sideways misses. Avery Jenkins keeps his toe on the ground because it's easier than to keep the whole sole of the shoe down. You don't move the hips from neutral. That shortens the reach back robbing power and loses a major source of power for the arm lever, which multiplies the input power that is only coming from the legs. Seeing as you don't turn the shoulders much at all either. You do have some little late acceleration of the arm which is great. But it needs to be much more pronounced than that.

I would experiment what getting the elbow more forward and pulling close to both pecs does for explosiveness of the arm late acceleration. Many drop it because it tenses up the arm and feels awkward. That is half right. You do need to get tension in the tendons by bending the elbow a lot and accelerating while resisting the bending back of the wrist. It is absolutely an uncomfortable feeling for a long time. Don't let it stop you from trying. Pulling the disc lower helps a lot in that aspect of the feel. Dropping to navel level will make keeping the nose down harder but some have better snap pulling at nipple height or below the pecs. It's probably subjective which works best for which body so experimenting is the key.

With that said there are some very muscular explosive powered long distance throwers around here that pull close to the left pec and away from the right. The benefit in that is more comfort and looser arm muscles for a less forced motion. It may be only mental comfort increase but in approaches aka touch shots it's more accurate for me. Can't speak for anyone else on that matter because it doesn't come up often enough to give me any clue about how it is for others. Go to Youtube and check out approaches of Jussi Meresmaa (FO 2010 Finnish Open 2010 search should do) one of the smoothest approachers in the game. That is different to driving but so are the needs too so you need to use different forms for different goals.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:15 am

Cheers again.
I basically drive Sidearm, but have been trying to get the BH sorted. This has meant my sidearm has slipped and you are spot on that I tend to let my grip go a bit to the side rather than the pads, I thought more of a reachback might help, but obviously not! and I haven't been doing the punchy 'whipcrack' finish I used to. I think Its better when I'm actually playing a round, I will reset myself! Sidearm is far more natural to me, possibly due to a lifetime of playing tennis with lots of forehand backspin (getting a dropshot to spin enough that it bounces back over the net before my opponent gets to it is always my aim!)
BH wise, lots to do, but I want to get into the good habits now, so I will keep trying to get it all together. My BH approach shots have improved immensely, I basically never did any unless I had to as the whole action was alien to me, but it isn't feeling so impossible anymore. I think I just need to build it up a bit at a time, as If I concentrate on one thing I forget everything else...
Thanks, I will post another vid soon.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:45 am

my latest attempts...

http://vimeo.com/36500895
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JR » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:07 pm

You've had progress congratulations! You are getting closer with the body positions but there are a few things you should explore. Mainly getting the hips to turn more to the right in the follow through and getting the elbow at least 20 cm forward from what you have going on now prior to straightening the elbow. The hips will turn more than they do now (sometimes not sometimes a little at the moment) if you concentrate on the quickness. You can find your maximum non momentum based hip twist speed, power and how it feels like by standing still without a disc hands at nipple height and twisting almost as far left as you can and then violently turning toward the right also whacking the arms right keeping the elbows bent. Just moving the arms from neutral position to the right. This drill needs a warm up and stretching or you could hurt yourself so it's best done indoors. Also doing it several times over will warm up the muscles and increase flexibility so you won't find your maximum right on. You can't twist as fast with the x steps, in the cold and with a lot of clothing so don't worry when you can't reproduce that feeling and speed out on the course in the winter. It is something that is good gym preparation for the summer. Now is the perfect time to do it.

The right pec drill thread could be a good reread for getting the elbow forward. Basically the upper arm should be a few centimeters short of fully extended from the side toward the target before you turn toward the target and straighten the elbow. Getting the elbow that far forward of the body needs a pause in the knee/hips/torso pointing 90 degrees left of the target. During which time you move the right shoulder to bring the disc from the left pec to or a little beyond the right pec. Depends on your body proportions where the disc is when you straighten the elbow. The idea is to bend the elbow a lot into a tight but not locked angle to whip it straight faster with a tendon bounce from the elbow area. That drives the tendon bounce from the wrist area.

You lost posture and probably pivoted a little too early with the right leg. That timing may be different in the snow vs with good traction. There is momentum going on that tends to turn you right when there's no traction. If you can train indoors to pivot later you'll probably get better acceleration. And that is the problem with starting to pull the arm early like you did. It is better than it was. Now you start the arm pull hard when the front of the disc is reaching the left side. It is better than nothing but considering how your arm does not accelerate much at all toward the end guiding the hip area and keeping the arm looser and more whip like should help. With a later starting point of the acceleration. I think the optimum acceleration point of the arm will change when you learn to keep the arm as smooth and loose as it is when you wake up minus the possible morning stiffness.

The posture keeping needs more tension in the right thigh after the plant and way more in the hips seeing as your hips tilt in two axes. Bracing those muscles will shift momentum of the x step into twisting the hips right quicker so it will add acceleration and power changing timing. Once you time the other body motions correctly you will gain distance.

At the moment your arm is not that fast and powerful. Even with loosening up the muscles for a quicker arm whip i think you will be better over time with just throwing practice. If you put in at least a 100 drives per session two or three times a week. In a quick succession. Normally many new motions will gain more from learning to guide the muscles better in the first three months and muscle power additions and converting fast cells to super fast ones will take time. To make your progress farther i'd box. I did not use a punching bag but used the Wii remote controller with Wii Sports boxing. That helped in putting too because i can straighten my arm faster now. I don't think lifting weights to multiple directions with the arms hurt either. Now that it is not a good weather for playing one could concentrate more on building up the infrastructure for throwing.

A great benefit is an added layer of safety against sports injuries. Repetitive stress symptoms are common among die hard disc golfers in the early years of their career. Tennis elbow being the nastiest common ailment. Take it from experience that is one ailment you don't want to mess with. Absolutely positively do not push through pain if you get pains under the elbow in the forearm. The pains may not even manifest themselves where the troubles lie. The pain may radiate to the wrist or lower up to the finger tips. A sure fire symptom that needs to be respected is numbing and tingling sensation. That tells you the nerves are getting pinched. That is the time to stop and rest and stretch for a few days minimum. Have fun and take care and don't be afraid to post videos as you progress. Happy training.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby andrewdouse » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:44 am

Cheers, good to hear I have made progress, but I know there is lots still to do. I'm in a tournament in a couple of weeks, so I'm going to see what tips I can get during the weekend.
Andrew :)
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Re: standing BH driving. critique please.

Postby JR » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:50 pm

Good luck and have fun at the tourney.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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