Dear lord. The master DOIN it

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Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby SouthernGolf » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:23 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-myEewq1 ... ata_player


This video made me realize I know NOTHING about the hit.

Someone please help( masterbeato himself would rule)

I'm order for him to generate that much spin and projectile of the disc with what appears to be half-chest reach back, what on earth is going on??!!?

How tense are the muscles in his forearms/biceps/carpals?
Do you literally rotate your hips THEN shoulders THEN accelerate after your disc gets in position or is it all one motion?

I noticed his off leg comes up off the ground before he releases, on my last video I posted everybody told me that would ruin my throw; however, it doesn't seem to effect him too much.

I really feel like an idiot because it looks so frickin' easy but I'm just not there.

Any input guys?
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:43 am

Hot damn! Some sick shots in there vid Dan!

So first of all I assume you have read the stickies in the technique section. If not, then go do that and work the hammer drills and work the hit back from a standstill. I'd still recommend to read them/watch them again and again. I still pick up things I missed before.

My view on reachback or backswing I prefer, is more about pivoting back and forth effortlessly and getting your body out of the way to be able to create a power pocket. The inward pull to the chest is not the important part of the throw other than for it to be slow/loose enough to load up and be able to set up for late acceleration of the elbow/wrist from the chest out to the target! Your current concept of reachback is to try and reachback as far as you can, whereas it should be an effortless feeling. When you try to reachback as far as you can you lose your balance and posture before any throwing has even begun.

In regard to footwork, Dan's rear foot pivots to the toes and doesn't leave the ground until after the hit, and then the rear knee follows through behind the right knee so he remains nice and stacked/balanced in the finish. This is different than how you are using your legs and you end up out of posture/off balance, and not really balanced properly before the hit. You should feel light and weight centered/balanced through out the x-step and followthrough. In the power zone/hit you should feel heavy momentum of the disc and be braced to throw that heavy momentum to the target. You want your core muscles working together but still leading with the hips and keeping the arm fairly taut/loose until the power zone. Pay special attention to the very beginning and end of the vid below.



These vids will also help understand your issues:


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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby SouthernGolf » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:00 am

After a bunch of run thru's standing still I can at least feel were the pocket should be. Now re aligning my body to make sure I don't throw spike hyzers is going to take some practice.

I'm hitting the field and will report after dark!
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:45 am

I was just watching this videos of Nate Doss last night:



Video summary...
1) Nate pulls the disc into his right armpit until his elbow closes completely (with the elbow sticking out front, and the disc brushing past the right pec), and at that moment his pinch point (between thumb and rip finger) is on the opposite side of the disc as his body. Notice that his wrist is not bent. The forward momentum of the disc into his right armpit is resisted only at the very very last moment by the wrist. The wrist would bend/collapse inward if he didn't actively resist. These are the steps leading up to the "right pec" position, everything is loose and very very relaxed and easy-going. The pros say to make your arm like spaghetti up to this point. The footwork is light and quick, Nate pushes off his back foot just as he is going into the right pec position, his torso and shoulder rotation is just starting to spin up. You can't push off too early, because then you spend all your core power on the relaxed part of the throw.
2) Once the disc is in the right pec position, the arm is curled up like a spring. The resistance needed to keep the wrist from collapsing closed with the disc into the armpit is the trigger. You have to actively use your wrist (try to force it open) from this point up until the very end of the throw, with maximum effort (hence the goofy faces people make in this part of the throw). The chopping of the elbow, combined with the ramping torso/shoulder turn forces the disc to bounce off the palm and if you don't grip the crap out of it the disc will fall out of your hand. You have to get your fingers up underneath the rim, try to get your fingernails on the flight plate and dig hard into the inner edge of the rim. You force the disc into a cul-de-sac and then let it bounce out around the rip point while ferociously chopping the elbow and gripping hard. Nate releases the heel pivot during the hit, which ensures a continuous increase in torso torque, ramping up right at the hit.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby CatPredator » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:37 pm

I know Beto talks about wrist extension a lot. You want to create a disc pivot at the hit so the disc is actually ripping out at between 3 and 6 o'clock on the disc (the cul-de-sac effect JHern talks about). People with no snap usually intentionally curl or let their wrist collapse, the proper tension doesn't build in the muscles, and so the disc tends to slip out while their hand is closer to 12 o'clock on the face of the disc and they get no extension/snap/pivot. Hopefully Dan or Blake will chime in...

That is a pretty sick round at the Valley. The deuce on 15 is cool. I always see people try it but it's rare you actually see one go in. I feel like I'm having an ok day if I can break even there. Beto had like 15 birdie putts!
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby SouthernGolf » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:36 pm

Well had a mediocre day. My putter driving increased significantly. I figured out that I wasn't closing my hips enough on the reachback and when I did I noticed I had a lot more pull through to work with. That was very awkward. I didn't feel like I was going to be able to throw it straight and resisted it a lot. When I did push through and put my back to the target I gained an easy 50 ft with all my throws but then another problem started rising. I was grip locking a fair amount. Not god awful grip lock but def releasing later than I was used to. Overall it felt better. My lower back right above my ass used to burn after 2 rounds and I always attributed it to bending over all day blah blah but it disnt hurt today after I closed my hips more for my throws.

I'm still timid about the pull through. I got the acceleration part and when to do it. but after I start my x step, when my left foot hits, I'm having troubles transitionIng from that fully extended reach back position to the hips neutral, disc in left pec- wait for te pause- part. There is no pause I can feel. And I know I'm opening my shoulders too soon. I'm thinking I'm starting at the left pec on my acceleration and loosing accuracy and power because of it.

Any exercises to help with reach back to right pec?
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:48 pm

I'd experiment your backswing by adding a Feldy type pre-swing. When the disc is out in front of you going into the x-step you keep the disc in its place and work your body around the disc into the backswing so when you go down to plant you are then at max reachback. The pre-swing adds rhythm and helps keep the arm taut/loose into the backswing and into the power zone as you let your body's forward momentum stopping on the plant bring your arm into the power zone taut/loose and then accelerate. I find the pre-swing also helps in maintaing posture and clearing the hips into the backswing. Pretend the disc in your hand is a sledge hammer, you will naturally let your body do the work instead of your arm.

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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby SouthernGolf » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:25 pm

i was watching that nate doss vid earlier and that was when i first realized that him along with other pro's like avery have their throwing arms mimic there off leg during the x-step. just like you said seabas it looks like it keeps balance. my problem is i do not understand how to take my hips from closed-neutral to get my disc just past the edge of my right pec WITHOUT opening my shoulders?

as i was posting this i re=watched the nate vid again and i noticed two things this go around

1. it seems like he doesn't reach DIRECTLY behind him. more like out from him( and back to some degree)
2. when he starts his pull through i can see his off leg start to collapse inward while his plant leg stays still(for just a split second of course) also it seems while thats happening his off shoulder is opening as well. that looks just weird...
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:33 pm

I had some good work today, getting back into the discipline, also experimented while playing a round. We throw warm-up shots up a hill at my home course, and I'm not sure what the distance equivalents are on flat ground, but I know how far the big arms get it up the hill (Avery being the biggest local arm).

I really felt the strain of trying to snap the disc in my forearm. I think I'm going to do some targeted weight training of those particular muscles.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby seabas22 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:31 am

SouthernGolf wrote:i was watching that nate doss vid earlier and that was when i first realized that him along with other pro's like avery have their throwing arms mimic there off leg during the x-step. just like you said seabas it looks like it keeps balance. my problem is i do not understand how to take my hips from closed-neutral to get my disc just past the edge of my right pec WITHOUT opening my shoulders?

as i was posting this i re=watched the nate vid again and i noticed two things this go around

1. it seems like he doesn't reach DIRECTLY behind him. more like out from him( and back to some degree)
2. when he starts his pull through i can see his off leg start to collapse inward while his plant leg stays still(for just a split second of course) also it seems while thats happening his off shoulder is opening as well. that looks just weird...

That is a nice Doss vid I haven't seen. Jhern explained that well and you can see Doss doing a little pre-swing and keeping the disc stationary into reachback with his body moving/pivoting around the disc. You can also see Dan doing a little pre-swing and goes to reachback very similar. Standing still feet perpendicular to the target, hold the disc out to the target with the disc leveraged out from inside the rear foot. Then x-step and move your body around the disc trying to keep the disc in place and maintaining a taut/loose feeling to the disc through the shoulder. You don't want to loose control of the disc's momentum though just maintain your grip on the opposite of the disc and so the disc will keep a fairly straight line when moving back forward inward and out. Doss's reachback from further out the side bringing in inward to the chest feels more spiny and loads the wrist easier I think. The far out away reachback definitely helps keeping width of the upper arm/elbow from collapsing/crashing against the chest. When going to plant your foot the disc should be near max reachback before your core wants to sling shot the disc back forward with the shoulders feeling leverage from the inside of the rear foot through front shoulder. Plant heel, brace for impact, body slows, disc moves forward, load up compressing springs, accelerate kinetic unloading/uncoiling from inside rear foot through core. Punch through the board, hit through the target...KA-BOOOOM!!!

Your front side has to brace and clear and the rear side collapses into the brace for the hit, and then everything clears/pivots out, disc and your body, with all the momentum going to the disc and the disc's momentum pulling your body into the finish effortlessly while maintaining balance. Bracing the front side slows your momentum but not the disc which brings the disc into the powerzone without using the arm. Keep your weight centered insides of your feet so your shoulders don't fly past the hips when you brace against the back leg for max reachback and when you brace against the front leg for the hit, you don't need to actively shift your weight back and forth, it happens when you get braced and balanced. If you lose posture and balance you can't fully brace and kill momentum. You just kinda of guide the disc's momentum inward loading the wrist/compressing the spring. Varying the tension of the wrist spring will yield varying results. Tighter spring can load and unload more momentum, but you may need a looser spring to get the feeling and then play around with wrist tension.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby fanter » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:08 am

How does Feldberg get away with having such giant steps? That plant step looks huge, and it doesn't look like his weight is centered over it on release.

Also, it looks like he throws from his rear shoulder (or that he never pulls the disc far enough into his chest). Am I nuts?

I'm asking so maybe I'll learn something. I'm not really looking to tear apart a world champ's form.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby SouthernGolf » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:10 am

Seabas that last post was amazing. Incredible depth in your answer to te question I was trying to ask but couldnt put into words. I am gonna work hard on that bracing the front, while letting the rear crash forwards based on momentum.

U said the reachback should be almost at max when the plantfoot lands. THAT was a huge part in timing I was missing. I would just about start my reach back AFTER my plant. Interesting.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby CatPredator » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:38 am

fanter wrote:How does Feldberg get away with having such giant steps? That plant step looks huge, and it doesn't look like his weight is centered over it on release.

Also, it looks like he throws from his rear shoulder (or that he never pulls the disc far enough into his chest). Am I nuts?


Feldberg doesn't throw bent elbow style, which is the method this site talks about most. If you read the first post by blake in the maxing out at 300' thread he goes into a little break down of the different styles.

I think Feldberg's big plant step is made possible by his level of strength and mastery of technique. Top level guys all have really strong, flexible core and leg muscles for powering those huge bombs. It wouldn't be advisable to try to start at that level. This site talks mostly about developing snap. Which brings me to...

SouthernGolf wrote:Seabas that last post was amazing.


He's been doing research and posting lots of videos related to posture and body/swing mechanics. It's a nice compliment to blake's compendium of snap knowledge. Great stuff!
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby seabas22 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:20 pm

fanter wrote:How does Feldberg get away with having such giant steps? That plant step looks huge, and it doesn't look like his weight is centered over it on release.

Also, it looks like he throws from his rear shoulder (or that he never pulls the disc far enough into his chest). Am I nuts?

I'm asking so maybe I'll learn something. I'm not really looking to tear apart a world champ's form.

Feldy has great dynamic balance, like all the top guys, and you can really see it in the finish position. I think the plant step just looks huge because he's moving forward fast. You can still how how his leg glides forward, not really stepping. The leg glide is facilitated from being balanced and getting ready to brace on the inside of the front foot/leg. Weight centered is dynamic to your tilted spine and stack, if you check out the "feel the braced tilt" and "super tilted spiral" vids they explain it really well. It's sometimes hard to tell just looking at someone, but the finish position will tell how well balanced they were at the hit. You should feel weight centered between the insides of your feet/legs, and balanced to your tilted spine axis. This is how the top throwers get a super tight spinal axis rotation. Robbie Bratten is super tilted!

Feldy doesn't use much elbow chop, so with a straighter elbow the power pocket and hit is further back to get the leverage. Think hockey and wrist shot vs slap shot. You could very well see a hockey stick in Feldy's hands and it looks just like a slap shot. The rear leg even moves just like a slap shot. Bent elbow is a wrist shot and just like in hockey a wrist shot is leveraged more in front of the body.
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Re: Dear lord. The master DOIN it

Postby JR » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:15 am

This is a great thread and i'll try to answer all the interesting points people have touched here if i can remember them.

Jhern you should also work out the tendons above the wrist and below the elbow in addition to forearm muscles. Muscle training should be explosive motions and tendon training absolutely not so that you won't injure the tendons. While gaining in the ability to resist the bending back of the wrist and in the end of the throw actively accelerating the wrist to the right of neutral.

Southern and Cat Feldy has a different kind of left leg motion than the regular push from the x step. In physics each motion has an equal opposite force. If you stood on one leg and made the arm throwing motion your body would turn right to left RHBH. That's opposite the throwing direction so it needs to be countered. Regular x step resists that counter force from the arm swing by staying on the ground until or after the hit with the left leg. Feldy swings the left leg forward and right facilitating weight shift from back to front at the same time.

Feldy teaches making mirrored motions with the throwing arm and the left leg from the beginning to the follow through. The idea in my opinion is to stay in balance and directing each of the motions to push the disc forward at optimum power generation into the intended direction.

The pause thing and drilling is again made easy with the way Feldy throws. I don't recall who here mentioned that Feldys form is great for automatically finding the hit and optimizing the acceleration to the max.

The gliding steps are very important. If you look at cats and parkour practitioners fall down and landing you'll notice that from high drops they jump forward immediately after landing. The idea in redirection of the falling force to forward from the tendon bounce of the legs is to not squat down as low as possible and straining the muscles and tendons to absorb the whole impact. Instead the tendons and the muscles are allowed to straighten pushing you forward. Steve Brinster is the only guy i know that hops up and down after i stopped copying him. I've used that jump them push at work but it's another matter. You can potentially gain a lot of power this way. I don't know where my power dissipates but in DG i get much less additional power than at work or punching a punching bag. I suspect my fingers not holding on long enough for a full disc pivot.

The gliding steps forward with feet moving forward not moving up and down are very different from the Brinster/cats/parkour practitioners hop. Which version requires less muscle power in maintaining posture, balance and timing? If any of those three fails you'll have lost some power. As timing is everything in DG you better be able to handle the additional power requirement and stress plus coordination requirements of the hop. I suspect that my legs and core aren't powerful enough to handle at least the taller more up to down crash landing hops like Steve and i have used. Now that my health fails me it'd be insane to continuously hop. It may be my fault entirely that i'm more accurate and repeatable throwing with gliding steps that have only back to forward motion. More athletic and coordinated players could very well add a lot of power hopping. And increasing the stresses to the body. When i first started to hop i gained D but training gliding steps has allowed me to catch up with the gliding steps. YMMV and training makes a lot of difference in both forms. I think i'm worse in performing the hop than i am with gliding steps.

Gliding steps get bounced around less the lower the sole of the foot glides above the ground. Only knowing that form will hurt the score. On the fairway as second shots on uneven surfaces or natural tees, especially uphill, you need to be able to keep smooth non swaying and jerking motions in time with tripping on obstacles. That means mandatory raising of the knees higher.Thus more up to down motions and added balance muscle power requirement.

Feldy varies how far he pushes the elbow forward but usually he's not leading much at all with the elbow. That's more like a golf club swing visually to me although a hockey slap shot ain't that far away.

Regarding muscle tension you need to tense up the right leg and hip above it to maintain balance. And move the weight forward while timing the heel pivot late enough to add a lot of late acceleration to the throw. When people start the arm pull when the right leg lands and the greatest arm acceleration from whereever (opinion and results vary) there is a third rarely discussed crucial timing point. I suck at it and usually pivot on the right foot too early. The golf instruction vids seabas22 posted show the reasons why. And people wrote about the late hit magnifying heel pivot earlier in this thread. They are the same thing. All parts of the kinetic chain. That chain gets unoptimized if you have too early leg pivot then too much time between the hips turning and so on. The more compressed in time the heel pivot, then knees turning to the right, hips twisting to the right, shoulders turning, elbow chopping, wrist extending and disc pivoting sequence is the more acceleration you'll create. If you can gain the top speed you're capable of simultaneously you're golden timing wise.

In the summer i made lots of slo mo comparison vids with and without the arm pre swing. At approach power and a full force pre x step run up steps. I could not repeat my form between shots in either styles. But pre swung throws suffered from worse and wilder deviations more often. Not good. Another proof in the pudding about the need to train the balance and posture upkeeping muscle groups.

The pre swing makes it easier to remind yourself of the hit point and usually makes the hit more violent. That pre programming the nervous system to give the best acceleration but one article stated that effect lasts for only 6 seconds. Not a problem if you do the pre swing during the throw. The other side of the coin is that once you train the hit point to become automatic and do mental exercise or do the pre swing pre throw and correct the disc angles before making the real throw you don't lose a lot or not at all distance.

The pause in the hips turning and delaying the heel pivot late enough means that the disc will be closer to the left pec than the right unless you move the right shoulder from left to right during the pause. The shoulder motion timing for Feldy is different from mine. He starts to move the shoulder as the plant step lands. I don't know if my too early heel pivot is connected to the later shoulder motion starting from the onset of the pause. Or getting the disc to the left pec. For me the timing of the pause of the hip and leg turns are when the disc passively comes to the left pec from where i move the right shoulder from left to right getting the disc to the right pec and beyond.

Feldy form is a great way to drill the pause disc motion from the left pec to the right. Even though Feldy does not always lead with the elbow like you have with the right pec position form that Doss uses.

Dave McCormack describes grip strength as being just shy of a grip lock. That should result in a full pivot provided the fingers don't give out easily after starting to move out of the cul de sac. That seems to be an issue for me so as long as you can maintain the cul de sac as late as possible the finger failure is lessened as much as possible. Dave Greenwell said that his discs have finger nail marks in the rim. Vibram discs are so grippy once clenaed properly with grease remover that even my limited pinch strength tends to create grip locks with them at above around 50F with power grips for me. Vibram discs two fingered grips in 50F slip as little as other discs in the summer heat for me.

Great vid and trowing Dan and the camera crew. Thanks and MOAR!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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