Some of Tim's meh drives

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Some of Tim's meh drives

Postby some call me...tim? » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:07 pm

All right, got some footage of myself driving, hopefully some of you guys will have some good advice for me. Some might recall that I hurt my back recently, well, I had to play hardly any golf for about two or three weeks, and I've gotten better again--able to throw without pain, at least. As far as I know, I'm not really doing anything different in these drives as I did when I hurt myself, except that I had heavy duty backpacking boots on then. The whole elbow lead style is fairly new to me, like last few months or so. The thing that kind of sucks is that when I first started trying the elbow lead, I instantly got more snap and added a good 30-40' or so consistently in my drives. Somewhere along the way though, I must have changed something b/c I'm back to mediocrity.

The drives here were all pretty typical for me, going about 300-325' or so. I put in one drive from my course just to show a "real" drive in play. Contrary to what my friend says, it's not that good, but adequate. That's where most of my "decent" drives on that hole go though.

Anyway, enough talking, here's the footage:

All the drives together.

The drives separated, followed by slo-mo:

Drive 1
Drive 2
Drive 3
Drive 4

First thing that jumps out at me when I see these clips is that it looks like I'm moving way slower than I feel. I feel like if I tried to move faster though, my throws would get wild. Thanks in advance for any advice you guys might have.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:46 pm

Timma!!!

I have a Roc named Timmy. After I throw it I say Timma!!!

Using drive #4:

Looks like a heck of good start. You need to start working on wrist extension as soon as possible without making any further changes IMO. If you could couple wrist extension and disc pivot into what you have now you might be shocked at the results...

You have enough arm speed, and the arm is set into the right attitude for the disc pivot, you have a wonderful elbow lead. Although there is more speed to be gained from learning to turn your right shoulder back in the bent elbow position , I believe there is no need to try to gain more speed before you understand the gains of a powerful pivoting release of the disc. right now you are essentially throwing with a single arc (made by you arm and hand). There is no coupling to the arc of the disc being levered out of your hand. The levering (caused by the wrist being bowed back and then extended due to centrifugal force) creates a mini catapult that throws the disc out away from the hand (I believe this is what is commonly called snap). Right now the disc is simply following the hand until very late in the throw (your wrist does extend a little but way to late to be effective). This late release creates some nose up and hyser and no acceleration vector into the disc which limits your power.

I will have to get together with Seth and see if we can get some video instruction, as I feel any further explanation by words beyond what has already been done in the other thread with just fan the flames of confusion even more.

You should be very proud of the fact that you are throwing what I feel is essentially correctly as far as your elbow lead to shoulder rotation relationship Although it is not optimized at this point, you definitely have the basics down. Most people simply do not have this element in place when they start to analyze their throw. Your hand and wrist orientation is wonderful. There is lot of good stuff there.

Until there is an alternative, see the other thread and look at Timmy Gill's levering of the disc from his hand.
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Postby Scotty N » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:35 pm

From all of these threads I've seen and been reading it looks like you could benefit from reaching back farther and using your hips more.

You're bringing the disc back to your left shoulder, but if you were to bring it back past your shoulder that is more room for the disc to accelerate.

It also looks like you have very little hip movement and could get more power from using more in your throw.
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Postby JR » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:19 pm

About 10 degree more knee bend and 5-8" shorter plant step should help. If your back isn't permanently hurt turning at least 15 degrees more than in drive 4 should increase power. Otherwise quite nice. Especially if you can increase arm speed. Although I'm with Bradley in recommending that now is a good time for you to start learning wrist snapping and eventually that'll benefit you a lot more than added speed. And slower speeds make wrist snap easier to learn. It may be a must for most.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:51 pm

very compact form. not perfect, but at least there isn't 9 layers of muck to weed through to get to the meat of it. similarly, it will be easier to make adjustments without having 9 layers of muck to shed first.

1. i believe your reach back is too high. it doesn't allow for the right shoulder to fold over and forces you to come around your body vs. across your body. i'd recommend base of the pecs or slightly lower. this will also help with nose down. throw 2 looks nose up and 3 looks not nose down enough.

2. you are getting a good pivot, but something with the timing of it isn't sitting well with me. seems like your legs are just along for the ride instead of driving through it. a tell-tale sign of this is that your left leg comes through very early on the step through. if you watch the big guns, it usually comes through as a result of further pivot from max extension in the follow through. this timing factor makes it seem like you are strong arming it a bit.

3. your finish power and follow through aren't focused very well. what brad said about wrist extension is true. seems like you stop accelerating as soon as the disc starts sliding from your hand (not getting a full rip).

4. your follow through is kind of wild. your head should continue down the target line. yours kind of flings about in a whiplash like fashion. press your face towards the target.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:11 am

Awesome, thanks for the feedback all, that was less painful than I was prepared for--

Bradley -
Yes, I get the "Timmah!" quite a bit--in other video clips, you can hear my friends in the background chanting it before I drive. Ahh, the things I get to put up with. :lol:

Anyway, I'll get right on trying the wrist extension/disc pivot thing. I've browsed through the "Seth Project" thread a bit, but honestly haven't implemented that stuff, I guess b/c I had the idea that that was something to work on when my drive was more developed. I'll start trying it out today though. Any other threads I should read besides the Seth Project?

Blake -

1. I'll try the lower reach back. I'm actually kinda glad you recommended that, as that seems more comfortable. I was keeping it high b/c I thought I read to keep the elbow high in the Dave D. distance article. And yeah, those throws might have had some nose up--its certainly a demon I haven't conquered yet. I've been trying the masterbeato grip lately, and it seems to help.

2.
seems like your legs are just along for the ride instead of driving through it...this timing factor makes it seem like you are strong arming it a bit

that seems like a fair assessment. any advice on how to better transfer the power from my legs? would a shorter plant step like JR mentioned help this?

4.
your follow through is kind of wild. your head should continue down the target line. yours kind of flings about in a whiplash like fashion. press your face towards the target.

That wasn't so easy to read, but I found it pretty humorous nonetheless. I never really thought about my head in the follow through. I think after I throw, I'm instinctively looking at where my disc went. Are you saying I should pretty much forget about the disc and just concentrate on the target when I'm throwing? I should also add that accuracy is an issue with me (hey, I might not be able to throw accurately, but at least its not far, right?). I feel a big part of that is having to take my eyes off the target in my reachback (part of the reason that I used to throw almost all FH). I've tried throwing BH while keeping my eyes locked on the target--and while I've seen some people do that with success--it just felt really awkward to me. Do you think "pressing my face towards the target" is something that'd help accuracy issues?

Thanks again for the advice, I'm eager to go out and try these adjustments. Oh, and I'll see if I can't figure out how to de-interlace the video too. :wink:
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Postby Blake_T » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:54 am

that seems like a fair assessment. any advice on how to better transfer the power from my legs? would a shorter plant step like JR mentioned help this?


take a longer step. kick your back leg up straight behind you, the act of doing this will help force more push into the hip drive.

Are you saying I should pretty much forget about the disc and just concentrate on the target when I'm throwing?


the face press should happen as your body opens up all the way. more often than not you will find that if you press your face down the target line that you will be looking right at the back of the disc as it flies away.

it's more a matter of focusing power than anything and the biproduct is lazer beam accuracy. an exaggeration of this would be to sprint down the target line after the disc leaves and you pivot. it's hilarious to watch but i can assure you that you can carve narrow gaps that way.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:27 pm

Blake_T wrote: an exaggeration of this would be to sprint down the target line after the disc leaves and you pivot. it's hilarious to watch but i can assure you that you can carve narrow gaps that way.


haha! I might just have to try that out. I'm sure it'd make some great video footage too. "How you like my follow through now...bitches?" :lol:
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Postby JR » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:49 pm

Blake_T wrote:
that seems like a fair assessment. any advice on how to better transfer the power from my legs? would a shorter plant step like JR mentioned help this?


take a longer step. kick your back leg up straight behind you, the act of doing this will help force more push into the hip drive.


That's interesting. With the speed of the x step in the videos I suggest kicking forward and to the right simultaneously with the left leg but I've always found that I pivot on my right leg faster with a shorter step and having the right leg close to the center of gravity looking from top down helps maintaining balance. I would've thought that a longer step was necessary only when a faster x step is performed.

Longer time to push with the left leg to help the hip drive should work but isn't the price a worse balance and slower pivot? If equal force can be generated in a shorter time with the left leg pushing harder and faster for later acceleration. As long as the harder effort still remains balanced. The later the left leg is pushing sideways the more pivoting force is generated and the timing of the quickest pivot should become later to my understanding. That doesn't mean that the left leg can't be picked up before the hit though. There are several timing versions available.

Hmm I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by hip drive. Hips turning with muscle power or hips tilting forward for weight shift or something else?
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Postby Blake_T » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:33 pm

I've always found that I pivot on my right leg faster with a shorter step and having the right leg close to the center of gravity looking from top down helps maintaining balance.


it's not about hip speed with Tim. his legs open plenty quickly but the muscles aren't contributing to the throw.

a longer step forces the large muscle groups to drive. basically, the longest step you can take while still getting weight forward will yield the most leg power.

hips speed is rarely the culprit for anyone. most people are too fast with unfocused power here if anything.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by hip drive. Hips turning with muscle power or hips tilting forward for weight shift or something else?


it's driving with the hips. most sports utilize some form of this:
a baseball swing
a golf swing
a slap shot in hockey
etc.

the legs in those aren't just going through motions, they're ideally contributing to power.

The later the left leg is pushing sideways the more pivoting force is generated and the timing of the quickest pivot should become later to my understanding. That doesn't mean that the left leg can't be picked up before the hit though. There are several timing versions available.


the leg isn't pushing sideways, it's pushing forwards.
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Postby JR » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:59 pm

I had interpreted hip drive correctly. Wouldn't it be easiest for Tim to just push harder with the left leg? Because he doesn't seem to push hard now. Agreed about the plant step distance vs weight forward but I like to hone the details too by adding pivot to the picture. I'd think that using leg muscles yields leg power too :-)

I've found out that I get more power and spin on the disc if I don't push with the left leg only forwards but also sideways. Starting forward but adding sideways push towards the end of the pivot.

Blake_T wrote:
I've always found that I pivot on my right leg faster with a shorter step and having the right leg close to the center of gravity looking from top down helps maintaining balance.


it's not about hip speed with Tim. his legs open plenty quickly but the muscles aren't contributing to the throw.

a longer step forces the large muscle groups to drive. basically, the longest step you can take while still getting weight forward will yield the most leg power.

hips speed is rarely the culprit for anyone. most people are too fast with unfocused power here if anything.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by hip drive. Hips turning with muscle power or hips tilting forward for weight shift or something else?


it's driving with the hips. most sports utilize some form of this:
a baseball swing
a golf swing
a slap shot in hockey
etc.

the legs in those aren't just going through motions, they're ideally contributing to power.

The later the left leg is pushing sideways the more pivoting force is generated and the timing of the quickest pivot should become later to my understanding. That doesn't mean that the left leg can't be picked up before the hit though. There are several timing versions available.


the leg isn't pushing sideways, it's pushing forwards.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:34 am

I'm gonna work on the tips here and will try to take more vids a little bit later. I was just wondering though, what camera angle works best for analysis? I thought that the angle in vids 1-3 would be good, but 4 seemed to get analyzed more. Thanks again for the tips...oh yeah, I tried implementing a couple of these things at doubles last night and had some noticeable results.

I worked on the lower reach back and that seemed to help. I also tried to concentrate on the wrist extension...and that helped with varying results. I definitely could feel the added D potential, but the trajectory was erratic. First try was a good ol' long way-wrong way shank to the right. And later, I guess i tried to compensate or something, and had a shank to the left. One of 'em did fly straight up the middle though in one of my best drives on a particular hole. So yeah, still need practice, but nonetheless, it caused one of the guys on my card to say "Damn Tim, have you been watching some videos? You're ripping them out there today." "Well, actually...." :)
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Postby Beetard » Sat May 03, 2008 2:35 pm

Tim, do you throw bent elbow, or is this working-on-the-hit training?
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Postby some call me...tim? » Sun May 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Bent elbow. If you look at the first post I talk about it, just kinda started with it, and had great initial results. But whatever it was that I was doing right in the beginning, well, I'm apparently not doing it anymore. :?
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