Steady's Form

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Steady's Form

Postby Steady 26542 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:35 pm

I will be 54 yrs old next month and I've been playing for 5 yrs. I have a rating of 957. I'm very accurate inside of 300'. I consider a throw successful if I put it inside of 10% of how far out I am. Meaning, if I'm 300' out I should be able to put it inside of 30'. I can do this half of the time.

I'm not sure how much D I should really expect to get at my age. But I gotta think I should be able to get more. Here are three throws of mine. This first one is of me throwing my putter from a stand still. I got 250' consistantly.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... utter1.flv

This next clip is a drive using my old reliable style. I got it to 300' consistantly.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... iveOld.flv

This last drive is my new style. I'm trying to consciously stay a bit lower and drive with the left leg. I got the same 300'.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... iveNew.flv

If I really reach back I can get it to 325' and occassionally to 350'. I've tried the "grip above the crease" with no added D. I can't get any hip rotation without forcing my body to be lower. But I don't get any more D. It also hurts my right knee. I tried the "slow pull" and accelerate through the "hit" but I actually lost D. I've tried wrist extension but I don't really think I understand the concept. So far, all the advice I've read about on this forum hasn't yeilded any improvement. It's been very frustrating.

Any feedback is much appreciated.
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Postby SkaBob » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:10 pm

You really don't reach back very far. Your arm reaches back about as far as it can based on your shoulder/torso angle, but you aren't turning your torso very far away from your target. That might help you some.
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Postby Aaron_D » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:28 pm

Your new form looks better to me. Your weight is more forward.

You just dont seem to be putting much into it. You look like you arent focusing on the hit. Try getting your weight more forward and transferring that weight forward INTO the disc. Really put your weight into the hit.
My Drive-> http://www.youtube.com/user/CpJ123?feature=mhw5#p/u/0/OWX_jHYB4bg

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Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:26 pm

I think the new form looks pretty solid. Don't set the bar too high.

More hit focus is always good. Really torque the disc with your index finger and thumb.

Practice with a two finger grip. Put all of the acceleration into those fingers and the thumb and try to POP the edge of the disc at the snap to make the disc explode off your rip fingers. Using a two finger grip forces this. It also builds up the muscle in your forearm that allow more grip strength in those critical fingers.

I will tell you (and everyone) else this. Without building more strength in the "pivot fingers" you will never be able to apply more inertial into the disc. The "fling" , Pivot", wrist extension or whatever you want to call it requires more grip strength late in the action. So, I recommend practicing using only those fingers to see where you are at, strength wise.

I will also tell you this.

You CAN build more strength that allows a later more deliberate POP (or snap), but you have to work on it. I have found that I have been able to transfer more of total inertia of the throw to the very last bit of the rip. I can throw the same distance or further by developing these muscles and timing than I could throwing with a full body turn, long plant, and grunt (which helped destroy my back).

So, maybe work more on the small muscle elements of the throw (like your forearm, wrist, and fingers), and give yourself some time to build your strength and timing. I think people think that some "magic" will just happen and you will just "get it" when it comes to snap. I think that is bullshit. This is an athletic endeavor you have to train to gain.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Postby black udder » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:53 pm

wulp, it looks smooth, so maybe that's a good thing. If you're accurate with what you're doing, is it really worth trying to get a little more distance? If you haven't been throwing 400' for years, I suspect it's going to be difficult to pick it up now - and (I can attest) hard on the body (and I'm only 42).

However, what what I see, I have the following comments:

1) I don't think you're pulling the disc close enough to your chest - It's a smooth throw, but I suspect you're lacking snap and you don't have the arm speed of Aaron (but really, who does?). You could probably add another 50' to your stand still putter shots (throwing anhyzer) with some snap.

2) Your x-step/run-up isn't really doing anything for you. It should get your hips closed and your arm further back. Then, when you x-step, you'd open the hips and rotate your torso while you pull your arm through.

3) You *might* be pulling your arm through first. I'd try initiating the through with hip rotation and see if it helps.

4) I'd also turn your back further away and reach back further. Slow pull to the chest as your hips rotate and then as fast as you can through the hit and finish.

5) I like the follow through. Looks relaxed and comfortable.

6) Doesn't sound like you have nose up issues. Moving the disc up past the crease is to help nose-up problems. So if that didn't yield anything, might be because you don't have that problem.

I've recommended this exercise in the past, so I'll do it again and you can see if it helps you any.

Stand with your arms at your side and go through your throw just using your hips and shoulders (leave the arms loose). You should feel a lot of power. What you want to do is incorporate that power into the throw when using your arms. I suspect you haven't been.

Also, see if you can stand still and throw and keep the disc really close to your chest. The disc should come into the crook of your arm and then chop out. You should really feel a pop when the disc snaps out. You can do this at low power to get the hang of it and then increase the power and speed. It'll be hit and miss until you get the timing right, but I suspect the end result would be over 300' consistently.
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Postby Steady 26542 » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:26 pm

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to make notes and try them out. I'm not a multitasker so I'll probably try one idea at a time, work on it, see if I get any improvement, and go from there.

I can assure you I put everything in those throws. It may not look like it, but I am. I think there are 2 areas of concern. 1) The hit; if I try the "pull slow until you get to the right pec" technique, I definately can't get any D. I don't have enough power to explode through the hit that way. The 2 finger idea is worth taking a look at. 2) The hips; this is probably where I can gain the most. I've never used my hips. My left leg just drags along. I started playing this great game 5 years ago at the age of 48. We'll see how much this old body will take. I'm not going to try to throw the hips like Markus, but I'll see if I can get the hips to lead a bit more. Is it me or does it look like he's a candidate for hip replacement...

Black Udder you may be correct. I've had a lot of success, is it worth it? I guess I just like improving. I'm better in every aspect of my game this year except for distance. I've never thrown a disc over 360'. Is it worth risking injury trying to throw farther? Probably not.

Thanks again everyone. This is a great forum!
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Postby black udder » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:02 am

Look up Will Lewis on the pdga site. He was trying to get distance for years, although it was before all the new discs came up. He finally just gave up and accepted what he had - around 300' of accurate distance. You'll see he's done quite well for himself. He worked on his putting and his accuracy and is a huge challenge to beat on an accuracy course.

The problem is that when it comes to the bigger, wide open courses, the bigger arms get an advantage. However, if he plays in his age category, he dominates.

It might be that's an alternative for you.

If you decide to try and get more distance, you could be in for 2-3 more years of inconsistent, uneven play as you try different form adjustments. Trying to get more hip power could throw off your current timing. If you manage to add snap, it could change all of your distance shots (i.e. you could throw further and have to learn all over again what to throw when. Plus, you'd have issues then until you could do it consistently. You'd end up expecting X distance, but getting Y. Expecting an overstable disc to fly flat because of your snap, but if you miss the snap, it becomes a meat hook. it could be frustrating and not worth the end result.

A lot of the players I play with are younger and I since I'm so competitive, I want to throw like them. I would like to throw over 400', but I suspect that my max will be 350' with longer shots down hill or in positive wind situations. For that 50' of distance, I've suffered through several years of inconsistent play. If I'd worked on putting instead, I might have been better off :P
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Postby Eric O » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:17 am

The feedback given so far looks like it should be helpful. Based on my observation, I would especially stress this point:
Steady 26542 wrote: 2) The hips; this is probably where I can gain the most. I've never used my hips.
You should be able to add a noticeable amount of power just by closing/opening your hips, which looks like the biggest red flag to me on those drive clips. Just don't do anything that's going to tweak your back. I also like Aaron's comment about getting your weight forward.

Looks like a pretty solid foundation.

GL & have fun!
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Postby Steady 26542 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:26 pm

Thanks again everyone. BU, you may just be right. Is it really worth trying to find that magical extra D? At 54 is it worth the risk of injury? I may wait until after Worlds to try these things. What am I talking about??? Of course I'm going to wait until after Worlds!! Am I an idiot? (Those that know me please don't answer that...) :lol:
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Postby masterbeato » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:00 am

black udder wrote:Look up Will Lewis on the pdga site. He was trying to get distance for years, although it was before all the new discs came up. He finally just gave up and accepted what he had - around 300' of accurate distance. You'll see he's done quite well for himself. He worked on his putting and his accuracy and is a huge challenge to beat on an accuracy course.

The problem is that when it comes to the bigger, wide open courses, the bigger arms get an advantage. However, if he plays in his age category, he dominates.

It might be that's an alternative for you.

If you decide to try and get more distance, you could be in for 2-3 more years of inconsistent, uneven play as you try different form adjustments. Trying to get more hip power could throw off your current timing. If you manage to add snap, it could change all of your distance shots (i.e. you could throw further and have to learn all over again what to throw when. Plus, you'd have issues then until you could do it consistently. You'd end up expecting X distance, but getting Y. Expecting an overstable disc to fly flat because of your snap, but if you miss the snap, it becomes a meat hook. it could be frustrating and not worth the end result.

A lot of the players I play with are younger and I since I'm so competitive, I want to throw like them. I would like to throw over 400', but I suspect that my max will be 350' with longer shots down hill or in positive wind situations. For that 50' of distance, I've suffered through several years of inconsistent play. If I'd worked on putting instead, I might have been better off :P


yeah I hear ya "Inconsistant play. It's either horrible or really really good rounds. But it's more horrible rounds than good ones. I have more solid rounds (mediocre as hell) than I do better ones and once in a while will be a streak of mid level intermediate rounds which pisses me off.

Most of my competitive rounds I do shoot mid level pro rounds but others are just mid level int. My rating made a pretty good jump though I went from 914 to 944 which makes me a bit more happy. Hard work does pay off, but if you don't want to take the time and effort of the whole waiting process of waiting for your game to shape up, than keep what you have and do what you do best. 957 is a good rating to have, keep it and raise it.
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Postby JR » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:33 pm

Don't have the time to look at the videos yet.

Number one power source is the left leg aided by the right leg. Therefore the left leg should push hard not hang from your hip like dead meat slowing your motions down. Hips too you've got the right idea.

For the hip explosion a person of your age shouldn't probably exercise this on consecutive days and when one does the start should be less than 50 throws or even much less. See what your body agrees with.

Setting the plant step to the sideways position of the left leg or to the right of that position allows for more easy hip turn which allows better power generation and protects muscles and spine.

Two finger grip works but overdoing it by too many repetitions too early before the muscles get used to it will make the joints of both fingers hurt a lot. So much for me that I think that repetitive stress injuries are bound to happen. no real knowledge of this though. Take it easy with these and don't do that many of these early on.

Not even millionaire athletic stars are gonna risk their career by trying to overstep the limits of their bodies. Wanting to and being able to are different things. I speak from experience when I say that you'll suffer more from being injured than you can gain by pushing your body too far. Yeah I can and sometimes do push my body too far through pain. Don't recommend it to anyone. When I notice myself doing this I stop or back off with power.

Listening to your body is the vital part in keeping healthy which is the key to allow you to train enough.

Edit: You may be speed dominant because of the way your muscles work. If you lack the muscles/fast twitch muscles/speed to allow fast late acceleration you're more limited than younger players and need to focus on speed at the expense of spin. In that case your new style may be the best compromise with the arm pull in mind.

Try keeping the left leg on the ground and pushing more when the disc leaves the hand on long drives. Climo style picking up of the left leg early adds accuracy at the expense of less power generation.

Getting the disc close to the chest is an important part in getting as much spin on the disc as possible.

Learning to throw with the added troubles of changing form is worth it in the long run and you're not too old to learn. Line shaping for different distances is important and will make you a better player but only if you have the time to learn these. On the practice field. It makes things faster to learn.

Steady 26542 wrote:Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to make notes and try them out. I'm not a multitasker so I'll probably try one idea at a time, work on it, see if I get any improvement, and go from there.

I can assure you I put everything in those throws. It may not look like it, but I am. I think there are 2 areas of concern. 1) The hit; if I try the "pull slow until you get to the right pec" technique, I definately can't get any D. I don't have enough power to explode through the hit that way. The 2 finger idea is worth taking a look at. 2) The hips; this is probably where I can gain the most. I've never used my hips. My left leg just drags along. I started playing this great game 5 years ago at the age of 48. We'll see how much this old body will take. I'm not going to try to throw the hips like Markus, but I'll see if I can get the hips to lead a bit more. Is it me or does it look like he's a candidate for hip replacement...

Black Udder you may be correct. I've had a lot of success, is it worth it? I guess I just like improving. I'm better in every aspect of my game this year except for distance. I've never thrown a disc over 360'. Is it worth risking injury trying to throw farther? Probably not.

Thanks again everyone. This is a great forum!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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