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Postby JR » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:21 pm

felixtibs wrote: I was unaware i was even leading with elbow, just trying to pull through in a straight line. But now that you mention it, I will try and enforce its role and smash through as MB puts it :-)


Try to begin the arm acceleration later. After the rear of the disc has passed the right side. Or for snap exercising in the last 12-8" before the arm straightens out completely.

Beware that leading too much with the elbow may be hazardous. You're the person to ask this on this forum so here goes: Last spring I really tried to go overboard with leading with my elbow to the max for as long as I could force my elbow to go using full power. I managed it too well. It felt like my muscles bulged as much they could late in the elbow lead when the upper arm was straight towards the target with my torso facing 90 degrees left of the target. Right side pointing towards the target just like the upper arm. I tried to force the disc to go as close to my chest as possible and force the disc to stay in a straight line until the elbow chops. When the upper arm couldn't move forward any more thanks to full extension it felt like I hit a wall with my elbow based on how I felt in my right shoulder.

It was like I was trying to throw my arm away separating from the shoulder. In terms of physics I think that's what I was attempting without realizing it at the time. There was a huge tension in my elbow as all the force I had generated concentrated in my elbow that was bent as much is possible. All the momentum I had going really hurt for a while in my elbow before finally it opened enough to let the power out by dissipating it into the motion of elbow chop. The elbow didn't feel bad long because the muscles in my shoulder hurt much more and longer. Bothers me 6 months later minimally during a long field practice session using full power.

In medical terms what do you think happened to my shoulder? Stretching as the upper arm moved out fully and couldn't move forwards and the elbow didn't immediately give way in chopping open but did after a slight pause and in a most uncomfortable motion being twisted in an unconventionally tight motion. Or was it the abrupt stop of the upper arm reaching maximum extension that caused a shockwave in the muscles? Or just the shoulder muscles bulging beyond capability using full power to keep the disc maximally close the the chest and keeping the same line. Without help from leg and hip turning initially. They came along only after or simultaneously with elbow chop. Perhaps forced by the elbow not giving way first so the elbow stopping perhaps dragged my legs and hip along to twist to the right.

Something else? Thanks for your opinions.

I didn't go to see a doctor but just took some time off and played with caution and fewer throws than normally with field practice and warmed up and stretched twice as much. And toughed it out until slowly the pain's almost totally gone now.
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Postby felixtibs » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:23 am

COuld be a few things, and without examining you it is hard to say, but here is my forum diagnosis:

1) If you blasted your shoulder into extension in order to get more lead with your elbow, you could have instantaneously displaced the head of your humerus thus driving it into the bursa, the labrum, the capsule. Even minimal damage to these structures can be painful, and would take months of rest to repair non surgically

2) You had an overuse injury of your muscles posteriorly on the shoulder thus pain. never giving it a rest kept the issue going and made it get wore. Stretching would have hurt as well
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Postby felixtibs » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:25 am

mark12b wrote:a few things i see in the putting clips:

- sometimes your followthrough goes toward the sky rather than the basket. try to reach toward the basket and also to keep that followthrough consistent from throw to throw.

- try a more compact motion overall, with more pop. a 20' putt really doesn't need much energy... as an exercise it's fun to see just how little motion it takes (with no followthrough, even)

- it looks like you've got the index finger flat out along the rim. try curling it under a little, so that you can feel the disc between the thumb and forefinger. for me it's more of an awareness than a pinch, and it helps me remember that i'm tossing something rather than just going through a motion with a disc in my hand. it also gets the finger out of the way at release.


Ok, I will give it a go, thanks!
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Postby JR » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:51 am

felixtibs wrote:COuld be a few things, and without examining you it is hard to say, but here is my forum diagnosis:

1) If you blasted your shoulder into extension in order to get more lead with your elbow, you could have instantaneously displaced the head of your humerus thus driving it into the bursa, the labrum, the capsule. Even minimal damage to these structures can be painful, and would take months of rest to repair non surgically

2) You had an overuse injury of your muscles posteriorly on the shoulder thus pain. never giving it a rest kept the issue going and made it get wore. Stretching would have hurt as well


Thanks. The second version doesn't sound plausible unless the stretching pain can be mild on the next day. The pain was shooting as it happened and for a minute or two and I couldn't really throw with any power afterwards so I stopped after a couple of mild powered tries due to pain. It was painful enough not to stretch on the day it happened. I know this from trying to rotate my arm in a circle forwards from the shoulder.

I wouldn't count out the first version as a definite possibility. Seems plausible.

So you know better than I do now not to force with heavy muscle usage the elbow out too much without also keeping up the hip turn and leaving chopping the elbow open too late to relieve the tension in the shoulder and elbow. For anyone non medically trained -DON'T DO IT!!!
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Postby felixtibs » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:24 am

JR: PM me if you want to delve into possibilities, which is really all I can supply since I cannot evaluate you. I need a very CLEAR, CONCISE description of what you were doing and what its effects were. i dont want to hijack my own thread!



So I went out and did a standing toss and BU was right, I wasnt generating anymore power from my X step Vs standing. So It is very apparent i havent been using my lower body whatsoever. i was able to generate some lower extremity power today and got good results: straighter with about 200'-250' distance from standing.

Ill keep at it and have a video afetr ive practiced it for a bit.
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Postby JR » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:00 pm

felixtibs wrote:JR: PM me if you want to delve into possibilities, which is really all I can supply since I cannot evaluate you. I need a very CLEAR, CONCISE description of what you were doing and what its effects were. i dont want to hijack my own thread!



So I went out and did a standing toss and BU was right, I wasnt generating anymore power from my X step Vs standing. So It is very apparent i havent been using my lower body whatsoever. i was able to generate some lower extremity power today and got good results: straighter with about 200'-250' distance from standing.

Ill keep at it and have a video afetr ive practiced it for a bit.


Thanks for the offer but I lean towards explanation 1. It's not that relevant to me because the troubles have passed me and I know not to overdo it any more.

You don't bend your knees nearly enough to get a good push off of the left leg. try squatting about 8" lower and see how much more distance there's for the left leg to push before the knee straightens out. Compare that to your current almost standing up form and you'll see why there's little leg power available. I wouldn't go lower than that 8" because then it'll strain your knee too much.

Bending the knees then pushing the left leg straight while pivoting with a bent right knee raises the left knee higher than the right. Spelled weight shift. It helps a lot to be leaning forward from the legs adding to that with leaning forward from the waist. At first you may get worm burners but adjusting the height of the hand at the reach back relative to release cures it. When you keep the wrist down at the release this will give you nose down flight which increases distance and makes the disc fly straighter.
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