Dave's Throws

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Dave's Throws

Postby Apocyl » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:08 pm

Here is a video of my throwing some drivers. most drives in the field ranged from 325-400+ft. Question for the knowledgeable: I throw a Wraith for a max distance driver but I have problems in head wind(alot of turnover) and don't have anything just a bit more stable, any ideas? disc wise. I was possibly thinking to pickup a Star XCaliber but still unsure. Thanks for checking out my hard work this season and any feedback is much appreciated :D

First shot was a 175 new Star Wraith @ ~390'
Second shot was a 170 beat Champion Surge @ ~385' (Sorry, cameraman failed me, the shot flipped at quite hard, that disc is beat to crap.)
Third Shot was a 173 fairly new Crush @ ~410'(this turned over way nice at the peak, and just fluttered back, quality of the clip is much better before i uploaded it)

Drive 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtkFX3GVC1c
Drive 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n45vwAUwdic
Drive 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6YMW-McjbE
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Solty » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:12 am

i'd check out a Predator, firebird first.....before jumping to the Xcal bandwagon.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby JR » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:25 am

Pro Destroyer is more overstable and deal better with the wind. If it's too much when new it'll break in to closer to Wraith just a tad more stable.

This is pretty much standard advice here for people who ask about their videos. Your footwork (placement) is for anhyzer. Squatting down by bending the knees about 10 degrees more helps with balance and getting more power form left leg push and put more momentum in once you start to twist your hips more. Which is what you should definitely do and more shoulder turn would also generate more power. You start pulling too fast with the arm too early. See what delaying the quick acceleration to when the rear of the disc passes your right side does to flight lines and D. It's not automatic that you'll get more D. Timing the snap and how your wrist works determines that.

You could bend your waist more in the reach back unless you're stiff or injured but in any case you can get more power by reaching back farther with the arm if you can control the arm. Meaning great late acceleration rate on top of that extra speed generated by the longer arm pull. Reaching back more can be helped by turning toes farther away from the target. But again it's a body control governed issue. Late acceleration with the body too is helpful as long as it's timed late relative to said body parts not relative to late acceleration of the arm. Necessarily. Some people have on occasion pulled off great successes with multiple body parts accelerating hard simultaneously late in the throw.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Apocyl » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:57 am

Thanks JR, I was also debating the destroyer, thrown a few, ones I threw were pretty beat and flippy, but a newer one should be promising for wind. As for the pull back, I have been adding more and more every time I go out. When i was first told by Trevor Thorpp to reach further back I went pretty much a full extension and had problems with turning the disc over too much, but gradually pulling further back is showing me D improvements without sacrificing accuracy. I have no injuries atm so defiantly can bend my waist more. Thanks for the advise ill keep updating progress, Going out to Kensighton(michigan) today, pumped to play.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby black udder » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:19 am

While the throw doesn't look bad, I can't help but think that you've got some anhyzer release or OAT or mismatch between velocity and snap if you're turning over all those discs like that. I'd really suggest you throw them with a hyzer release and you'll hopefully get a much better line (flip up to flat, go flat, then fade off).

You're also weight back and upright when you throw which allows you to throw anhyzer or nose up much easier.

When you throw, try and get your chin over your plant toes. You'll probably throw a lot of hyzers until you get used to it.

It looks like you're getting a pull quite close to your chest, which is great, but you're also letting the disc come out a little early. You'll see your chest doesn't square up to the target completely (it's close, but you can be better).

It's hard to see if you're starting with hip power, but you don't use much shoulder rotation. You can add a lot of power/distance by sequencing your hip / shoulder rotation prior to that arm speed/snap. Now, doing that can also throw your timing off, so be prepared for some crazy shots.

You're throwing really high and getting turnover, so that would imply that you're throwing nose down, which is great. It's a big hump.

With that beat surge, you should be able to hyzer flip it up, have it go out, then turn over late in the flight, then fade back at the end. That'll maximize it's distance. I'm guessing that with some minor tweaks, you've really got 450'+ of distance power in your throw.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby JR » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:48 pm

Black udder check how his feet are planted. Right leg to the left of the left leg and left of the line he's running to. Definitely a distance anhyzer technique. Along with spike hyzers this is the easiest method of getting the nose down on medium height throws after the disc passes the apex. Flipping a disc for (medium in this case) high anny doesn't absolutely require as much weight forward as flat releases. Although it is beneficial for sure.

Apocyl there's variation in Destroyers and the first run after first runs was flippier. Pro Destroyers are long and start out as the most overstable. When you're starting the quick arm acceleration too early from an arm straight back reach back it's easy for your power to create too much speed vs spin unless you have great snap. That definitely creates mad flips even from overstable discs. Letting the legs and body turning move the arm from full arm reach back can be used to bring the disc to almost your side. From there a gentle pull with the arm until the disc passes the right side and then applying mustard will move your arm faster than before provided you keep your muscles loose enough in the arm. But also leave you great acceleration which is needed for the proper motions of the wrist to snap at the end. Giving up to 10 % speed increase and up to 40 % spin increase for a 600' thrower measured according to Öystein Carlsen's thesis.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Apocyl » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:16 pm

JR, I've heard from a few people now though, that after the pro Destroyer hits a couple of trees(which i hope wont happen) that they become flippy really fast. With that said, how do the star Destroyers play against the pro, would i be giving up much D to gain a more durability?
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Apocyl » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:27 pm

JR wrote:Letting the legs and body turning move the arm from full arm reach back can be used to bring the disc to almost your side. From there a gentle pull with the arm until the disc passes the right side and then applying mustard will move your arm faster than before provided you keep your muscles loose enough in the arm


At what point in my throw would you suggest, adding "mustard"(arm acceleration). Since I'm enforcing bad habits with early acceleration.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby black udder » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:14 pm

Apocyl wrote:JR, I've heard from a few people now though, that after the pro Destroyer hits a couple of trees(which i hope wont happen) that they become flippy really fast. With that said, how do the star Destroyers play against the pro, would i be giving up much D to gain a more durability?


See if you can find the Destroyer thread that came out when they came out. The destroyer wasn't nearly as overstable as folks thought. If you're flipping that heavy plastic, you'll flip a destroyer, too.

If JR is correct about you throwing anhzyer shots intentionally, then you don't want to throw surges or wraiths. They're not overstable discs. The Xcaliber is more overstable and it sounds like the Boss will be as well (although folks are finding some of them flippy too).
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Star Shark » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:48 pm

It would appear that the Boss is now basically a Speed 13 Wraith, same stats. My friends tell me it's somewhere between a Wraith and Destroyer in stability. I don't have the arm for the Destroyer so I wouldn't really know.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby Apocyl » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:18 am

black udder wrote:If JR is correct about you throwing anhzyer shots intentionally, then you don't want to throw surges or wraiths.

Yeah udder, I do intentionally throw anhyzer's most of the time, but normally when I do, I use my fairly new crush, but i need to invest in some other disc also to do the same thing. Also, is it ok for the anhyzers, or am i enforcing bad habits? and if so how should I change my run up to stay away from annis. I will look around for that Pro Destroyer article also, will keep you informed.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby black udder » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:43 am

There wasn't a pro destroyer thread, it was just a thread like the Boss that's up now - everybody talked about their impression of the disc page after page :) I don't recall when it was released, but if you check around that date, it should be fairly simple to find (in the equipment forum).

As for throwing anny... yeah, it doesn't help you at all. You're throwing rhbh, so if you throw anny, your discs just wear into rollers at 2-3 times their normal usage. Out of the box, for a 350' thrower, you should be throwing something in the high 16x range or low 17x range and it should be overstable when thrown flat or you throw it anhyzer and it'll come back. Once it breaks in some, then it's a flat throw, then a hyzer flip to straight, then hyzer flip to straight to turnover, then you can throw it high with hyzer and have it go anny and fade back, then it's a roller. There is so much more life in a disc if you throw it hyzer or flat to start with vs anny.

In addition, you lose a lot of your routes - your shot shaping skill - if you only throw anny. While it's a great shot to lean, the opposite is just as true - being able to throw a long hyzer shot. Being able to throw a flippy disc with hyzer and have it come up flat at the right time is another.

I went through a stage where I thought all the discs I had were too understable, but now that my form has improved, I'm finding out just how stable or overstable discs are. I'm not great by any stretch, but when I can throw a 150g disc for max distance and not have it roll, then I have to believe that somebody turning over 170g+ discs which are more overstable molds are having issues beyond the disc itself. It may not be bad form, but it might not be the best for to get the most from the discs you're throwing, you know?

Watching you throw, if I were you, I'd take a shot at throwing with the best form you can. You appear to have a reasonable grasp of how to throw and the basic mechanics, so I can't imagine it being a long process to get back to the distance you're throwing now. Hopefully, then you'd be looking at a 350'-400' line drive type shot with those sky annies being 450'+.

All your shorter shots would then benefit and, hopefully, your golf game would improve as well. It'll take some time and you'd have some inconsistencies as you beat in the new muscle memories, but it's the kind of thing that could pay off as long as you play disc golf.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby JR » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:52 am

Apocyl wrote:
JR wrote:Letting the legs and body turning move the arm from full arm reach back can be used to bring the disc to almost your side. From there a gentle pull with the arm until the disc passes the right side and then applying mustard will move your arm faster than before provided you keep your muscles loose enough in the arm


At what point in my throw would you suggest, adding "mustard"(arm acceleration). Since I'm enforcing bad habits with early acceleration.


You can see things for yourself by standing in front of a mirror. The earliest time to start accelerate quickly that gets suggested often is when the rear of the disc passes your right side. I've had better results delaying even later but for reference and as a first target that traditional method is a good place to start.

My later onset of acceleration risks not achieving full speed and is dependent on how good timing and accelerating ability you have on that day. Which leads to more variations between days and even on the same day between beginning with not fully warmed up to warmed up to getting your stuff together to tiring out.

Another method to find out a good acceleration point is to stand straight and let your arms hang loose and twist with the hips. The arms will fly away from your body eventually. At the point where you feel the greatest acceleration of the arm moving away from your body (arms feels heavy) is when you should add power and acceleration into the throw.

Regarding Destroyers I haven't broken in a Pro to flippy. But there are lots of variations between Destroyers of different plastics and within stars. For best mix of longevity and the least amount of change upon wear and the longest time to keep the flight similar a max weight Star of a non flippy run is the best bet but you'll lose distance and it's still less high speed stable than new Pros. I haven't heard of differences between Pros. My first run Star and Pro took equally long time to break into equally worn in broken in state. A lot depends on where and how and how often you use Destroyers. If you play on grassy courses with fairly open fairways and don't hit trees often a Pro should stay more stable than any Star for a couple of months then be equal to a similarly used Star for a couple of months more at least. For me used like this my Pro lasted more stable than first run Star for 8-9 months. Despite being used much more in field practice on top of normal play. But I did not throw the Pro on rocks like I did the Star.

For learning to fine tune form in sidearming Star is probably better because it'll flip easier but also fade earlier meaning you can shape more lines with it than the longer later fading Pro. Added to the fact that it breaks in later which gives you time to see changes in your form not the disc if you're using the disc in rugged terrain and do hit trees at high power.

Destroyer in Pro isn't anything like A Pro Wraith in getting beat to roller from one or two hits. Or the people that have hit a tree and made their Pros unusable (never heard of it) throw with 500'+ power into an obstacle at a couple of feet. Not a problem for me with usually sub 400' back hand Destroyer D. Don't know how far I could sidearm because I need to baby my injured arm. Have spiked a Star 171 first run to 310' at least.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby presidio hills » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:59 am

there are many great pros that throw anny for distance; gregg barsby and cale leviska come to mind.
in that discraft distance driving clinic video i remember about half of them throwing anny. the guy who had the "biggest arm" was throwing preds for max D. barsby visited our course and proceeded to purchase a tsunami from our club... then threw the length of our meadow in the air... about 475? i've seen him pump stuff out to 530ish in a distance competition, and it looked like it was overstable stuff... i'd guess a tsunami. i don't what he's throwing these days, though.
a destroyer is not a good headwind disc in any plastic.
i mean obviously you need to know how to throw a hyzer, hyzerflip etc... but if your bread and butter distance shot is an anny flex shot, go with it. check out cale in the 2007 worlds final 9 videos on disc golf tv.
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Re: Dave's Throws

Postby SkaBob » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:55 am

Depending on how much more stability you need, you could check out Avengers, TeeRexes, Forces, Xcals, Pulses, Bosses, Preds, Flicks, Firebirds, Tusnamis...all sorts of things are more stable than a surge or a wraith.

If you just need a HAIR more stability, then check out a Nate Doss stamped surge. I figure you're probably looking for step beyond that though, so I'd look at Avengers, Pulses and TeeRexes first...if they're not long enough for your liking, check out the force, boss or xcal. If none of that's stable enough, check out Tusnamis or preds or fbs...
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