Is it as bad as I think??

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Is it as bad as I think??

Postby bcsst26 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:50 pm

Here is some video of me throwing from a standstill. The first 3 throws are just a flat throw. The next 4 throws are me throwing an anhyzer. Let me know what you think. I still have a lot of kinks to work out so lets here them. Thanks in advance.

http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3043166940101767097OAytkn?vhost=good-times
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby cmlasley » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:42 pm

I think you need to get your disc closer to your chest on the pull-through. You're not using your hips to full advantage (I'm a hypocrite because I don't either). Have you tried a bent-elbow reach back?
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby JR » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:54 pm

Even from stand still you should turn to face the target when the disc leaves your fingers.

You've improved a bit from the last time with the timing of the hard arm pull but it's still a mirror image of what it should be. Meaning you start to accelerate the arm when a little motion from the maximum reach back position has been made. When you should twist your hips and push harder with the left leg to get around and more weight forward and only as you're nearing chest squared with the target should the arm really start to move.

I've thought of late acceleration lately like this in pre throw routine with improving results: Plant, move the elbow to point at the target slowly with loose muscles and a tight angle in the elbow at the end of this motion before the legs and hips start to use full power. The idea is to get the elbow bent as much as possible pointing at the target while the chest stays at 90 degrees to the left of the target. This happens as you move the upper arm straight from shoulder towards target. Only after the upper arm can't get closer to the target does the leg push get hard and really yank the hips to face the target at very quick angle change rate. Think of it like this: maximum rotation in degrees in minimum amount of time equals most rotational force. Which is what good snap and spin on the disc demands. Plus using your arm as a lever.

In effect what happens is that your torso changes direction by 90 degrees simultaneously with the maximum power from legs and hips coinciding with the elbow chop. This means that the largest muscle groups are firing fairly simultaneously at highest possible acceleration rate. Blake likes to preach about force which is mass times acceleration. Unless you gain weight you need to add acceleration. If you are using 10 % power everywhere up to chest 90 degrees left of the target elbow as close to the target what's left is a short time to get to full power meaning high acceleration. In fact too long a time with less than best possible acceleration.

What you need is to be smooth at the beginning of the acceleration of the elbow chop. If you yank as fast as possible with muscles initially loose you're more than likely to twist your wrist into odd angles. Like in your video you started with hyzers and flat angles and ended up with anhyzers as the session went on in the reach back position. The smooth area of the elbow chop should be gone as the speed and muscle tension gets up by the time the front of the disc is about 8" short of the arm being straight and the disc releasing. After that you really should start accelerating hard. This means that you're still accelerating after the disc has released unless you've got immense muscles made of twitch cells. All of which means great spin on the disc if you can extend the wrist and fingers while holding on to the disc.

In the video you start your routine by extending the arm 90 degrees left of the target. Check out what happens if you start toes in the same direction with upper body facing as close to the target as you can so that you gain more distance and speed in which to accelerate to the reach back position to plyometrically load your torso and don't stop in the reach back but as you reach the farthest point back you immediately start the pull. When you're in the beginning memorizing the hyzer angle initially try to keep that as a reference because you want the same angle to occur in the air initially after the release. If there's a mismatch you need to track the cause and eliminate it. Also looking at the target pre throw helps you to aim and trying to get the look at the same spot you're aiming at when you come from the reach back again facing the target should help some in aiming.

Acceleration late in the throw and clearing the hips to face the target also helps in eliminating or at least reducing the spraying you're suffering from. It's not only the close to the chest arm pull that helps here. To make the turning towards the target with the torso easier starting with the right leg planted to the right of the left looking from behind the tee towards the basket helps immensely. That's conducive to flat or hyzer releases as you body is slightly leaning to the left depending on how much the legs are apart. For consistency your lower back should be slightly stiff so that it doesn't bend differently from throw to throw. This is a partial solution to releasing with consistent hyzer/anhyzer angle. Which helps with reducing variance in landing points.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby felixtibs » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:59 pm

one word--> Stiff

Calm down man, its just disc golf! our overthinking your shots it would seem. IMO, you could probably relax and get the same results without the whole dramatic prep phase.

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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby bcsst26 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:51 am

JR wrote:Even from stand still you should turn to face the target when the disc leaves your fingers.

You've improved a bit from the last time with the timing of the hard arm pull but it's still a mirror image of what it should be. Meaning you start to accelerate the arm when a little motion from the maximum reach back position has been made. When you should twist your hips and push harder with the left leg to get around and more weight forward and only as you're nearing chest squared with the target should the arm really start to move.

I've thought of late acceleration lately like this in pre throw routine with improving results: Plant, move the elbow to point at the target slowly with loose muscles and a tight angle in the elbow at the end of this motion before the legs and hips start to use full power. The idea is to get the elbow bent as much as possible pointing at the target while the chest stays at 90 degrees to the left of the target. This happens as you move the upper arm straight from shoulder towards target. Only after the upper arm can't get closer to the target does the leg push get hard and really yank the hips to face the target at very quick angle change rate. Think of it like this: maximum rotation in degrees in minimum amount of time equals most rotational force. Which is what good snap and spin on the disc demands. Plus using your arm as a lever.

In effect what happens is that your torso changes direction by 90 degrees simultaneously with the maximum power from legs and hips coinciding with the elbow chop. This means that the largest muscle groups are firing fairly simultaneously at highest possible acceleration rate. Blake likes to preach about force which is mass times acceleration. Unless you gain weight you need to add acceleration. If you are using 10 % power everywhere up to chest 90 degrees left of the target elbow as close to the target what's left is a short time to get to full power meaning high acceleration. In fact too long a time with less than best possible acceleration.

What you need is to be smooth at the beginning of the acceleration of the elbow chop. If you yank as fast as possible with muscles initially loose you're more than likely to twist your wrist into odd angles. Like in your video you started with hyzers and flat angles and ended up with anhyzers as the session went on in the reach back position. The smooth area of the elbow chop should be gone as the speed and muscle tension gets up by the time the front of the disc is about 8" short of the arm being straight and the disc releasing. After that you really should start accelerating hard. This means that you're still accelerating after the disc has released unless you've got immense muscles made of twitch cells. All of which means great spin on the disc if you can extend the wrist and fingers while holding on to the disc.

In the video you start your routine by extending the arm 90 degrees left of the target. Check out what happens if you start toes in the same direction with upper body facing as close to the target as you can so that you gain more distance and speed in which to accelerate to the reach back position to plyometrically load your torso and don't stop in the reach back but as you reach the farthest point back you immediately start the pull. When you're in the beginning memorizing the hyzer angle initially try to keep that as a reference because you want the same angle to occur in the air initially after the release. If there's a mismatch you need to track the cause and eliminate it. Also looking at the target pre throw helps you to aim and trying to get the look at the same spot you're aiming at when you come from the reach back again facing the target should help some in aiming.

Acceleration late in the throw and clearing the hips to face the target also helps in eliminating or at least reducing the spraying you're suffering from. It's not only the close to the chest arm pull that helps here. To make the turning towards the target with the torso easier starting with the right leg planted to the right of the left looking from behind the tee towards the basket helps immensely. That's conducive to flat or hyzer releases as you body is slightly leaning to the left depending on how much the legs are apart. For consistency your lower back should be slightly stiff so that it doesn't bend differently from throw to throw. This is a partial solution to releasing with consistent hyzer/anhyzer angle. Which helps with reducing variance in landing points.



Thanks for all the great advice.

cmlasley- I have been working on getting my hips more involved that is why I am back at throwing only from a standstill. I still have a ways to go as you can see but you saying that I need to do more is a help. Now the question is how to do this??

JR-Thanks for the advice. I need to read this several more times and think about it but I think it is helping me put more things together.

felixtibs-During field practice I would agree that I think about it more. If I just play a round throwing from a standstill I would say I do better since I worry more about hitting my gaps more than I do my technique. I think once I feel like I have a decent technique down then I will be able to relax more.

Keep them coming. Anything to concentrate on while throwing would help?
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby cmlasley » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:22 pm

bcsst26 wrote:cmlasley- I have been working on getting my hips more involved that is why I am back at throwing only from a standstill. I still have a ways to go as you can see but you saying that I need to do more is a help. Now the question is how to do this??


I'm working on this, myself. Bradley Walker said something a few days ago that I thought was helpful. He was talking about getting your belly button around to face the target before the consummation of the arm pull. This really helped me visualize the linear and pendular portions of the swing. I think your hips have to start the pendular movement, with your spine as the fulcrum.

Legs positioning and action helps with hip rotation, as well. Either Black Udder or garublador (I honestly can't remember which) repeatedly been talking about foot pivot (which direction you point your knees) and how that affects hip rotation. Maybe one of them will chime in.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby dgdave » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:12 pm

I think the biggest question is, has all the stand still work improved your golf game so far? Is your timing better?
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby SkaBob » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:49 pm

A few things I noticed watching this video:

1. Your arm isn't moving in a straight line. You start with it WAY out away from your body, then pull it in a straight line towards you, easily 45 degrees off the line of your shot, then just curl it around your body as you throw. You're robbing TONS of power from your throw doing this. Your reach back, and the entire forward pull are most efficient in a straight line.

2. When that angular pull towards your body gets in far enough, you slow your throw down almost to a stop and THEN begin the actual throwing motion. Stopping yourself is working against you by robbing the speed you've generated from the disc, as well as by forcing you to start your pull again mid-way through your motion, and allowing you almost no room to accellerate before the disc leaves your hand.

3. For your foot placement being fairly (but not all that) consistent, your aim (especially on the anhyzer lines) is all over the place. Go to a baseball diamond (or any sandy spot) and mark where you want to plant your feet. Work on planting them on the same spot on the sand for each of your throws, and work on making sure your discs all travel in the same direction.

4. On your anhyzer throws, you're giving the disc about twice as much nose-up as you need to in order to achieve those lines. You're air-bouncing the shot. When I throw a putter on a line like that, to get the distance you're getting, it's got WAY less angle - and most importantly it's flat to the plane of the motion I want to give it. To achieve the right angle, instead of the pull coming directly in front of me, and going parallel to the line between me and the pin, the line I actually pull on is an upward angle, moving outward at the angle I want the disc to leave at, and the disc leaves my hand much earlier. Torso position is key in this working for me. I stay turned mostly away until after the disc leaves my hand, where on a straight line by the time the disc crosses my torso, I'm 90 degrees from facing the target, and by the time it leaves my hand I'm turning most of the way towards it. With the anhyzer (especially big huge anny bombs), my torso's really only getting to the point of being 90 degrees from facing the target by the time the disc leaves my hand.

5. Weight shift. Your weight shift is happening before you stop your throw to begin the real pull after you've brought the disc in towards your body. Ideally you want it to be while you're throwing, as the pull is really getting going. I don't think you should change the timing on your plant and weight shift, I think you should work on my next point above everything else I've mentioned so far.

6. Your throw, because of that stop you're making, and because of the way you're timing things, is really two motions...I'd imagine it feels like "PULL! THROW!"....you want "PTUHRLOLW!" (lol). One motion, one movement. From the furthest back position in your reachback, to the disc already having left your hand, one motion.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby bcsst26 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:04 am

DGDAVE wrote:I think the biggest question is, has all the stand still work improved your golf game so far? Is your timing better?


Yeah it is helping. I usually just do field practice but the other day I was a little bored doing this so I decided to play 9 holes throwing all my shots from a standstill. I also had my practice bag which is 6 wizards, 3 rocs, and 1 star 150g teebird. Anyways I shot the same score as I have been shooting I think it was 3 over. I was hitting small gaps much better and was surprising myself what I could do. So yeah improvement is there on the course.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby bcsst26 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:16 am

SkaBob wrote:A few things I noticed watching this video:

1. Your arm isn't moving in a straight line. You start with it WAY out away from your body, then pull it in a straight line towards you, easily 45 degrees off the line of your shot, then just curl it around your body as you throw. You're robbing TONS of power from your throw doing this. Your reach back, and the entire forward pull are most efficient in a straight line.

2. When that angular pull towards your body gets in far enough, you slow your throw down almost to a stop and THEN begin the actual throwing motion. Stopping yourself is working against you by robbing the speed you've generated from the disc, as well as by forcing you to start your pull again mid-way through your motion, and allowing you almost no room to accellerate before the disc leaves your hand.

3. For your foot placement being fairly (but not all that) consistent, your aim (especially on the anhyzer lines) is all over the place. Go to a baseball diamond (or any sandy spot) and mark where you want to plant your feet. Work on planting them on the same spot on the sand for each of your throws, and work on making sure your discs all travel in the same direction.

4. On your anhyzer throws, you're giving the disc about twice as much nose-up as you need to in order to achieve those lines. You're air-bouncing the shot. When I throw a putter on a line like that, to get the distance you're getting, it's got WAY less angle - and most importantly it's flat to the plane of the motion I want to give it. To achieve the right angle, instead of the pull coming directly in front of me, and going parallel to the line between me and the pin, the line I actually pull on is an upward angle, moving outward at the angle I want the disc to leave at, and the disc leaves my hand much earlier. Torso position is key in this working for me. I stay turned mostly away until after the disc leaves my hand, where on a straight line by the time the disc crosses my torso, I'm 90 degrees from facing the target, and by the time it leaves my hand I'm turning most of the way towards it. With the anhyzer (especially big huge anny bombs), my torso's really only getting to the point of being 90 degrees from facing the target by the time the disc leaves my hand.

5. Weight shift. Your weight shift is happening before you stop your throw to begin the real pull after you've brought the disc in towards your body. Ideally you want it to be while you're throwing, as the pull is really getting going. I don't think you should change the timing on your plant and weight shift, I think you should work on my next point above everything else I've mentioned so far.

6. Your throw, because of that stop you're making, and because of the way you're timing things, is really two motions...I'd imagine it feels like "PULL! THROW!"....you want "PTUHRLOLW!" (lol). One motion, one movement. From the furthest back position in your reachback, to the disc already having left your hand, one motion.


Thanks for the nice breakdown. You are right about Pull Throw! That is how it feels but I couldn't ever really pinpoint why it feels this way. I am thinking about concentrating on #1,2,6 the most for now. Last night I went out and really concentrated on using my hips to drive my throw and if I did this the Pull and throw seemed to combine more. My throw felt completely different which I guess is good. I guess combining the two is the trick of all this and not slowing down is something I will have to concentrate on. I think I slow down maybe because I want to make sure to get that disc close to the chest. Which leads to the straight line pull. As for the reach back and pull through I can not seem to get this in a straight line. I think it is mostly my reach back that is getting me. I either reach back around my body or reach back to far away from my body. Any little tricks on something to concentrate on to get this straight line?? Thanks again for the great advice. I have all winter to get this throw to something respectable.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby JR » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:25 am

Pulling on a straight line requires legs, hips and shoulders working in conjunction with the arm pull. As the arm moves from reach back to release the positions and angles of legs, hips and shoulders must change to keep the disc moving on initial vector.

Standing close to a wall with the disc horizontal 1 inch from the wall and 1 inch from your chest or less once it comes to chest level and pulling from reach back to release should help in determine which body parts move when, how much and in which order in respect to other parts. There's definite overlap in leg, hip and shoulder motion.

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Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby black udder » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:40 am

okay. You start with your hip rotation, pointing your knee inside, but then when you pivot back out, you pivot around the plant foot - your hip doesn't open up prior to everything else.

What you want is to open your hip and have that turn your torso and have that tug your arm, then pull.

It looks like you're trying to use weight transfer with both feet planted. I'd stop that now. Just use rotational/pivot power. When you want weight transfer, just lean back on your left (maybe pick up your plant foot), then step down to your plant and pivot / pull.

So. Do do the weight transferless throw. Just pivot your hips back like you are. Point the disc back on target a little better. As Skabob said, it's a little out to one side. Don't throw your weight over your back leg, just pivot your body so your chest faces away. Your goal here is not to "heave" the disc, but to rotate as fast as you can. This is what's getting the disc out there.

I'd also strive for much shorter shots. It's hard to do, but just relax and focus on your pivot and rotation. Don't worry about the discs until you get the feel right. I'd throw a pylon or something out at about 100'-150' and practice just popping a putter out to that with no weight transfer in your shot.

You also need to separate your hips and torso in the rotation. Just stand still and practice pivoting your hips first, then your torso. Discover at which point the hips cease to rotate and your torso gets it's first motion, then work on getting that transfer smooth. Once you have that working, see at what point your arm begins to move when your torso rotates. When you have that, work on starting your pull there.

It looks like as you come across your chest, you're leaning away from the disc. This appears to be causing some anhyzer release. I'd like to see you leaning forward more. Try moving your right foot forward so that your right heel lines up with your left toes. Then when you throw, push off so that you have to get over your right toes with your chin.

As for DGDave's comment about is standing still helping. I wanted to comment (for anybody interested), that if you practice this, you should be able to get throws out to close to 300' or better and it will require less movements to coordinate, so hopefully, it will be easier to get more consistent results. Also, once you have the stand still shot down, then you will know what the benefits are when using an x-step.

Adding the x-step will add weight transfer motion and more speed into the equation. What I've had the tendency to do is to pull around instead of straight through as well as swoop instead of staying flat when I use an x-step. Thus, my accuracy is decreased, I get a lot more nose up and my distance could be the same or shorter than my stand still throws. If I do it all right, I can get a lot more distance, but there is more to go wrong.

Keep up the work - I think it just hasn't totally clicked yet :)
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby SkaBob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:23 am

My tip for helping with the reach back is don't be married to not moving your feet much. One of the better masters level guys around here throws from a standstill, but really it's a 1-step. He starts facing completely away from the target, disc held out in the opposite direction he wants to throw it. He takes a step back with his plant foot, and where it lands is where he plants.

Your feet stay in exactly the same spot, and just pivot. In order to get them to pivot back forward to where they need to in order for your throw to come out on the right line, it's hard to pivot very far off center and get a lot of power into it without lifting and/or moving one of them.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby black udder » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:47 pm

I agree, Bob, just think it's something he should work up to once he has the pivot and pull working more smoothly.

He can do that to add some distance to the stand still position. Then once that reaches a max distance, add the x-step.
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Re: Is it as bad as I think??

Postby cmlasley » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:28 pm

Ah. . . and there's BU with the explanation of knee rotation that eluded me earlier.
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