Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

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Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby ChUcK » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:40 pm

We all know about the 1m OB relief perpendicular to the line rule. What about this scenario:

The fence along OB is leaning inwards, over the IB area, due to age, foliage, whatever. If your disc ends up under the leaning section of the fence, 1m relief could still make for a near-impossible stance for your next throw.

Imagine the scenario at the extreme, with the fence leaning over so far it is nearly parallel with the ground. If the TD made no provisions about this situation, I suppose you would have to either stand on the fence or take an unplayable lie?

After writing this out it seems like a stupid point to even discuss, but when I was on the course eating dirt under the fence it seemed like a valid issue.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Timko » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:57 pm

803.05

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual
water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles,
harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the
obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is
no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original
lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is
announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in
accordance with 803.06.


I would assume this wouldn't be a casual obstacle if I had to play the lie you're talking about, so I would attempt to throw a shot with my back to the target backhand if possible, or a sidearm shot. If anything, pitch out to the fairway and play for 3. Alternativley, you could call an unplayable lie, and move up to 5m behind your line if it's on the same line and shoot your 3rd shot.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby mark12b » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:13 pm

i'd think if the fence is leaning over in such a way that it creates a "cave", then the large solid obstacle rule would come into effect, just like if the disc goes under a big rock.

803.03.E
If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the mini marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.03 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the mini marker disc.

the other possibility is that the top edge of the fence is the OB line. looks like this whole issue is something the next version of the rulebook will cover:

viewtopic.php?f=18&p=139963

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The future rulebook will likely be dealing with non-vertical surfaces like this in the OB section. For the time being, even though there's a rule of verticality with regard to the OB line being where the fence is on or closest to the ground, the current interpretation (which can be argued) is that a disc on the OB side of an OB fence is OB regardless if it's leaning on the fence that's leaning over inbounds area.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Timko » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:28 pm

mark12b wrote:i'd think if the fence is leaning over in such a way that it creates a "cave", then the large solid obstacle rule would come into effect, just like if the disc goes under a big rock.

803.03.E
If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the mini marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.03 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the mini marker disc.

the other possibility is that the top edge of the fence is the OB line. looks like this whole issue is something the next version of the rulebook will cover:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/vi ... 8&p=139963

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The future rulebook will likely be dealing with non-vertical surfaces like this in the OB section. For the time being, even though there's a rule of verticality with regard to the OB line being where the fence is on or closest to the ground, the current interpretation (which can be argued) is that a disc on the OB side of an OB fence is OB regardless if it's leaning on the fence that's leaning over inbounds area.


I think the problem is that by standing behind the obstacle on the same line of play, you'd still either be restricted on your stance, or you'd be standing OB.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby some call me...tim? » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:03 pm

I think you just need to man up and squat(ty McSquatSquat).

Trying to think of where there's a fence like this...where were you eating dirt?
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby mark12b » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:37 pm

Furthur wrote:I think the problem is that by standing behind the obstacle on the same line of play, you'd still either be restricted on your stance, or you'd be standing OB.


it really depends on where the hole is in relation to the fence -- but yeah if you can't take a legal stance (regardless of what name you give the relief), then the only option would be to call it unplayable and throw from the previous lie.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:10 pm

Based on my other post that's been copied by a few of you, the top of the fence on the OB side is an OB line. You could argue that you get one meter in from where the top of the fence line drops down to the ground on the IB side using the Rule of Verticality 803.03D.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Barbikes » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:13 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Based on my other post that's been copied by a few of you, the top of the fence on the OB side is an OB line. You could argue that you get one meter in from where the top of the fence line drops down to the ground on the IB side using the Rule of Verticality 803.03D.


OK - So now I'm confused. Was ChUcKs disc OB? If not then that area between the top of an inbounds leaning fence and it's base is kind of a "purgatory" zone. You're not OB but you're not IB either. I realize that this is something that would be covered by the TD in a tournament but if you like to "play the course as you find it" then a bit more clarification is needed (at least for me).
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby mark12b » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:43 am

Barbikes wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:Based on my other post that's been copied by a few of you, the top of the fence on the OB side is an OB line. You could argue that you get one meter in from where the top of the fence line drops down to the ground on the IB side using the Rule of Verticality 803.03D.


OK - So now I'm confused. Was ChUcKs disc OB? If not then that area between the top of an inbounds leaning fence and it's base is kind of a "purgatory" zone. You're not OB but you're not IB either. I realize that this is something that would be covered by the TD in a tournament but if you like to "play the course as you find it" then a bit more clarification is needed (at least for me).


sounds like that's what he's saying -- essentially that purgatory zone is a 6-foot-thick OB line. since the line itself is OB, the disc would have to be sticking out from the cave to be IB.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby ChUcK » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:29 am

I was thinking about this subject while putting on hole 1 at Lakewood Park in Seattle. There are a few older sections of the cyclone fence that sag over the IB area.

Mark, it really doesn't depend on where the hole is in relation to the disc, because the 1m relief is perpendicular to OB regardless.

There are a few places where even a BarrySquat means your backside is still brushing the fence and making for an uncomfortable stance, and if the line/fence is itself considered OB, then you would have a supporting point touching OB at the time of release, which is a no-no.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:35 pm

sounds like that's what he's saying -- essentially that purgatory zone is a 6-foot-thick OB line. since the line itself is OB, the disc would have to be sticking out from the cave to be IB.

The disc in the "cave" is IB since the OB line is the base of the fence at that height. If a disc is on the OB side of the leaning fence and somehow is laying on it neqar the top of the fence, it is OB even if you project the shadow of the disc downward into the IB grass below. However, since the top of the leaning fence on the OB side is OB, you can use the Rule of Verticality to take your relief on the grass 1m farther away from where the top line of the fence line would be projected down to the ground and not have to get in the cave.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby tim » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:44 pm

Until the rules are altered (or unless the TD specifies), I think your best bet is to be willing to get down on the ground and get dirty. Laying down is not prohibited by the rules (AFAIK), and I've had to stretch out pretty much all the way before to get under low-hanging branches. There is very seldom a truly "unplayable lie" -- usually that call just means that the player doesn't have the balance and/or flexibility to get to their lie. From the ground, take the fastest, most understable, glidey disc you've got and pop it hard on a bit on an anhzyer -- you can get at least a 150' throw from a stance fully stretched out on the ground with the right disc and snap. That's usually enough to save you the 3/4 on a hole.

In the meantime, I think it is worth noting that TDs should be encouraged to offer specific rules related to leaning OBs -- and especially for barbed-wire on the course. One private course nearby has a standing local rule that you are REQUIRED to take at least 1m and can take up to 2m from ANY barbed wire on the course. This is to help prevent liability. I've seen someone catch barbed wire on their follow-through and it's a pretty gruesome thing, and the impending tetanus shot isn't fun either.

I personally think the informal barbed wire rule should be added to the PDGA rules, just because it affects so many courses, and can be such a safety hazard to play.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby mark12b » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:04 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
sounds like that's what he's saying -- essentially that purgatory zone is a 6-foot-thick OB line. since the line itself is OB, the disc would have to be sticking out from the cave to be IB.

The disc in the "cave" is IB since the OB line is the base of the fence at that height. If a disc is on the OB side of the leaning fence and somehow is laying on it neqar the top of the fence, it is OB even if you project the shadow of the disc downward into the IB grass below. However, since the top of the leaning fence on the OB side is OB, you can use the Rule of Verticality to take your relief on the grass 1m farther away from where the top line of the fence line would be projected down to the ground and not have to get in the cave.


oh, i see... interesting! but i thought the rule of verticality says that the OB line extends downward as well as upward, so it shouldn't be possible to have two lies that are vertically aligned but one IB and one OB -- are we saying here that a fence counts as "vertical" regardless of its orientation?

ChUcK, i was thinking that if you had to take casual relief or a large-solid-object lie, then that's when it would matter where the hole is in relation to OB, since in both of those cases you have to relocate your lie along the line of play.
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Re: Where do you mark your lie with a sheisty fence?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:54 pm

[quoteoh, i see... interesting! but i thought the rule of verticality says that the OB line extends downward as well as upward, so it shouldn't be possible to have two lies that are vertically aligned but one IB and one OB -- are we saying here that a fence counts as "vertical" regardless of its orientation? ][/quote]

Read this Rules FAQ for more info related to this situation.
http://www.pdga.com/faq#299n821
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