Where does 10M start?

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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby money 21 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:32 am

we have a rule lets stick to it. that is the way to get the sport to move forward consistancey.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby rusch_bag » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:02 am

I would be pretty upset if it gets changed to 15M. If Climo is capable of putting from 10-15M without jumping, all the power to him, but seem people are more comfortable and efficient jump putting at that range and it shouldn't be changed because one guy doesn't like the rule. If you do make the change, why not just change it for NTs and majors or something or the open division in general. Let players develop their skillz in other divisions.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Dogma » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:40 am

money 21 wrote:we have a rule lets stick to it. that is the way to get the sport to move forward consistancey.

I agree. Smaller baskets? Farther circle? What's the deal? Is putting too easy these days? I wasn't aware that 30 foot gimme putts were ruining the appeal of the game. Maybe I just suck.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am

What's our goal in changing the circle radius? Are we trying to force people to conform to a style of putting? I don't give two shits if someone jumps, does a cartwheel, backflip, or steps past their putter when they're standing at 33'. People like Climo need to stop whining and just play like the professional's they are instead of whining about "unfair" advantages for their competitors. Climo's allowed to do it too if its such a huge "advantage".
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:10 am

Climo is not whining. He's suggesting a way to reduce the problem of illegal jump putting just outside the 10m line. Moving the line to 15m would significantly reduce the number of illegal jump putts that were holed out which is the current problem.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Dogma » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:21 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Climo is not whining. He's suggesting a way to reduce the problem of illegal jump putting just outside the 10m line. Moving the line to 15m would significantly reduce the number of illegal jump putts that were holed out which is the current problem.

Can you explain the problem, because I don't think I understand the issue. What exactly are people doing at 10m that is illegal, and how will it happen differently at 15m? Is it just that if you 'cheat' at 15m you're less likely to make it in than if you 'cheat' at 10m, and therefore people will care less about the cheating?
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:34 am

Is it just that if you 'cheat' at 15m you're less likely to make it in than if you 'cheat' at 10m, and therefore people will care less about the cheating?

Pretty much the case. I don't think eliminating jump putting would be popular even though it should be putt jumping. So the 15m would be a compromise since determining whether someone actually putted then jumped or jumped then putted happens so quickly that it's hard to call. There are many players who have developed good leaping putt skills just outside 10m. However, even the best of them can't 100% confirm they always putt first versus jump first even with video slo-mo. Allowing players to jump then putt has been considered but it leads to dead fall and slam dunk putts around the basket being legal which isn't seen as appropropriate and/or safe.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:04 am

Is the PDGA seriously worried about "slam-dunk" putts? This is why I'm not a member.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Dogma » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:33 am

Jeronimo wrote:Is the PDGA seriously worried about "slam-dunk" putts? This is why I'm not a member.

Actually, I can imagine it being an issue. Maybe not from a standstill, but if you were allowed to jump, then technically you would be able to get a running start and launch yourself toward the basket. You might not actually reach it (unless you were a good long-jumper), but you could get close, and your momentum would carry you head first toward the basket, which wouldn't be good for you or it.

It's a pickle. If you allowed people to jump, then could they also jump from a bad lie and throw from the air to get around an obstacle? Seems like a slippery slope. The more I look at the options, the more it makes sense to push the circle out.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby chiggins » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Jeronimo wrote:Is the PDGA seriously worried about "slam-dunk" putts? This is why I'm not a member.


Actually, I seem to remember this coming up in another discussion. I think slam-dunk-putts were the reason for the 10m rule in the first place.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:48 pm

Dogma wrote:It's a pickle. If you allowed people to jump, then could they also jump from a bad lie and throw from the air to get around an obstacle? Seems like a slippery slope. The more I look at the options, the more it makes sense to push the circle out.



OK, this is a good point. I concede. I still wouldn't move it outside 10m. We have a rule, lets stick to it.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:56 pm

OK, this is a good point. I concede. I still wouldn't move it outside 10m. We have a rule, lets stick to it.

That's exactly the point in moving the line out. Fewer throws would potentially violate the rule on putt jumping.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:25 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
OK, this is a good point. I concede. I still wouldn't move it outside 10m. We have a rule, lets stick to it.

That's exactly the point in moving the line out. Fewer throws would potentially violate the rule on putt jumping.


In your opinion. You're talking roughly 50' before you can consider jump putting, that's excessive. If the PDGA did not want jump putting to exist they should have squelched it when it first appeared. Instead they called it legal, and they want to remove a tool from my toolbox. I would jump putt at 45' and I have on numerous occaisions so I absolutely do not agree with moving the circle out. Is this seriously that big of a problem on the pro tour?
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:34 pm

The PDGA never legalized jump putting or even putt jumping. All the rule says is that you can follow through after releasing your throw if you are outside 10m. At some point, players decided that jumping was also okay even though the running follow through was the intent of the rule. (And thus the concern about running jumps, slam dunks and dead falls if the rule was changed to allow jumping.) So players developed that jumping style and several had success with it in the 35-40 ft range. It was tolerated by others even though many released the shot after they were in the air or it was so close no one could call it properly. And here we are today and yes it is a problem on the pro tour. That's where the controversy and ideas to change the rule started, especially once video started showing some questionable shots in big events.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby mobster » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:00 pm

What about allowing a jump-up to the marker but not past it? As long as you landed and stopped forward motion behind your marker there would be no penalty.
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