Playing the "wrong" hole

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Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby warobert » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:13 pm

Fun rules question from my clubs tournament this weekend. Round one day two a group is starting on hole 12. They play the hole out and afterward realize that the basket they played to was not in the position indicated on the score card or rules handout. A local in the group has a basket key and moves the basket to the "correct" position. After the round this group comes to the TD and asks what they should do.

The situation is that one card played a different hole than everybody else. Our solution was to rule that they played the course as it was when they started their round and since their position was longer and harder that it was fair to the field to make them keep their scores as recorded for the hole. Did we make the right call or did we blow it?
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby veganray » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:28 pm

You mean that when the first group played, there was no basket at all in the "correct" position? If so, the TD should be hanged.

As far as the ruling, it is covered by 801.04 (pertinent clauses bolded):
A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the coursecorrectly. Before play begins, players shall attend the players'meeting and ask about any special conditions that may exist on thecourse, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate holeplacements, out-of-bounds areas, and mandatories.

B. Specific Types of Misplay and Penalty Procedures for Each:

Wrong Tee: Teeing off from the wrong teeing area. If the misplay is discovered after the player's throw from the incorrect teeing area, but before a subsequent throw, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and treat the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player's score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.
Misplayed Mandatory: Failing to attempt to navigate a mandatory route. If the misplay is discovered after a player's throw has passed beyond the mandatory on the wrong side, but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall be assessed a one-throw penalty and play from the drop zone as stipulated in 803.12 B. If the misplay is discovered after a player's throw has passed beyond the mandatory on the wrong side, and a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall finish the hole without playing from the drop zone, and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.
Wrong Target: If a player holes out on the wrong target for a given hole, he or she will continue play from a lie directly beneath that target, without penalty. If the player holes out at the wrong target, and believes the hole is completed, and proceeds to play the next hole, a two-throw penalty will be added to that player's score for misplaying the course.
Out-Of-Bounds Play: Playing an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds. If the misplay is discovered after the throw from out-of-bounds, but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall throw from the correct lie and treat the throw from out-of-bounds as a practice throw (one throw added to the player's score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.
Non-Sequential Play: Skipping a hole or playing the holes in the wrong order. If the misplay is discovered after an initial throw has been made but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and count the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player's score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw has been made, the hole being played shall be completed. Immediately thereafter, the player shall proceed to play the course in its proper order from the point where the misplay began. Regardless of the number of holes skipped, or played in the wrong order, a total of two penalty throws shall be added to the player's score for the misplay infraction. The score earned from any completed hole(s) shall stand. Any completed hole(s) shall not be replayed.
C. In instances where the misplay rules affect players within a group differently, the group shall remain together while a hole is being completed by some of the group to verify scoring and rules compliance.

D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayedand the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.


F. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage has violated section 3.3 of the competition manual and shall be penalized in accordance with this section.

So, it does look like you blew the call. The players who played the "incorrect" position should have, if and only if they had teed off on the next hole, each gotten his score for that hole (from the tee to the "incorrect" basket) recorded with a two-throw penalty added, as well. If they had yet to have teed off on the next hole, each should have marked under the "incorrect" basket, continued to play to the "correct" basket, and recorded the total number of throws taken on the hole (i.e., the number taken to play from the tee to the "incorrect" basket plus the number taken to play from under the "incorrect" basket to the "correct" basket), with no additional penalty. But the TD should still be strung up (or at least pilloried), either way, if there was just a sleeve at the "correct" basket location.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby curt » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:15 pm

I think as a TD I'd be tempted to DQ the whole card. I don't care if the TD did screw up by forgetting to move a pin placement, who do these golfers think they are that they can just move a basket in a tournament, especially AFTER they complete the hole. What would they have done if every basket was in the "wrong location" would he have kept moving baskets as he played? I'm sorry, this just seems like an unacceptable action to me.

If I were looking for a rulebook justification, it would be something in the interference section or the player misconduct section of the competition manual (probably this: (4) Willful and overt destruction, abuse or vandalism of property, including animal and plant life or this: (7) Activities which are in violation of Federal, State or Local laws or ordinances, park regulation or disc golf course rule. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.)

I also think that there may be a technical need to give the entire field a 2 stroke penalty for holing out on the wrong basket, since no one holed out on the basket the round started with. It would of course be an inconsequential penalty since everyone would get it except the DQ'ed card.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby veganray » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:00 am

Slow your roll, curt. You must've missed this important piece of info in the op's post:
the basket they played to was not in the position indicated on the score card or rules handout

Armed with the knowledge of where the basket is intended to be, the players did exactly the right thing, putting the course in alignment with what was published in the tournament literature, except for the fact that they botched the ruling on the players in the offending group. The players should be commended (but those who offended penalized per the rules); the TD should be excoriated.

To underscore the idiocy of your position, consider the following situation: the first group of the day on hole #10, armed with a tournament rules flyer specifying that hole #10 is to play to the "A" position, drives, approaches, & comes to find #10's basket not at the "A"position, but thrown upside-down into a creek behind the green. Would you advocate DQ'ing the group if they fish the basket out of the water, place it in the "A" position, putt out, & play on? Or, in your twisted world, would the "right" thing for them to do be to attempt in vain to hole out in the upside-down, underwater basket and expect each & every other group on the course to do the same?
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby warobert » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:01 am

My interpretation lined up with vr. I said that they played the wrong basket but nobody else did, so 2 strokes for the card. To avoid this penalty they had two options imo. They could have moved the basket and then played to it using the sleeve of the wrong location as their lie (before playing the next hole) or they could have touched nothing and just let the scorecard be wrong and the td negligent. But since I was only the scorekeeper and not TD my opinion didn't count.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby curt » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:25 am

I don't think that a basket upside down in a creek is a similar situation to what happened here. I am assuming that the basket was at least in a legitimate position for the hole. I definitely agree that the TD was at daily for not putting the basket in the correct position, but I feel that allowing players to move a basket is a slippery slope.

What if, like in most tournaments, there is no handbook outlining where the basket belongs, and I decide that I don't like that shot presented to me on the first hole. If I have a key to the basket, I could decide it was in the wrong place an out it in another location. According to your interpretation, this would be completely legal. The idea of players changing the course after playing it really seems like a bad idea to me.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby veganray » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:41 am

curt wrote:I don't think that a basket upside down in a creek is a similar situation to what happened here. I am assuming that the basket was at least in a legitimate position for the hole.

If the basket is anywhere other than where the tournament program states it shall be, it is not in a "legitimate position for the hole".

curt wrote:What if, like in most tournaments, there is no handbook outlining where the basket belongs, and I decide that I don't like that shot presented to me on the first hole. If I have a key to the basket, I could decide it was in the wrong place an out it in another location. According to your interpretation, this would be completely legal.

Not so, my floundering, red herring spouting adversary. I have been quite clear that the reason for the players' actions being OK is that they were complying with the published tournament rules. I would also consider their actions OK if the "correct" basket position was stated in the players' meeting. Absent those codifications, I have said nary a syllable about whether a player should be allowed to move a basket in-round. Your "most tournaments" scenario (I don't want to play tournaments in your neck of the woods, btw - sounds like your TDs are almost as lazy & sucky as the one we're discussing in this thread) has nothing to do with the case at hand nor with the rules interpretations I have been proffering, so it is extraneous to the debate & pretty much worthless.

However, if you want my $0.02, if there is no announcement at the players' meeting and no publication in tournament literature, I would consider the position the basket is in at the beginning of a round (even upside-down in a creek behind the green) to be its "correct" position for that round, and no player should be allowed to change it.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby money 21 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:04 pm

i think they should have called the TD over on the spot as soon as they reallised it was the wrong placement before they moved anything. then i would of had them replay the hole. We ha some thing similar happen in a evet recently. the first guy in the group teed off and the td then noticed the basket was in the wrong place. this was in a final nine for the top 4 players.The basket was moved and the guy who had already gone was given the choice of a rethrow or a playing from where he was.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby veganray » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:28 pm

What "should have" happened and what the rules prescribe are sometimes two very different things. In the case that they are, the only fair thing to do is to abide by the latter. I can understand the willingness for a shitty TD to try to mitigate his error by committing yet another one in an attempt to placate the aggrieved player(s) & keep with the "don't harsh anybody's mellow, dude" vibe permeating our game, but that doesn't make it right.
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Re: Playing the "wrong" hole

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:49 pm

Correct ruling is provided by 803.05 A & E. Once the course is in play, nothing should be moved unless it is allowed by rule. Baskets cannot be moved by rule. So players were wrong in moving the basket. Section E indicates the penalty is one throw for violating this rule and each player in that group would get it. It makes no difference what was indicated in the program because that can be as wrong as the pin placement. But the actual location at the time the round starts takes precedence by rule over what the program says unless the basket was moved to the correct position before the round started. That would be true even if the TD was nearby to ask after the group played the "wrong" pin. The TD would be wrong to agree to move the pin to the printed pin placement.

A similar example might be where the TD had to print the rules several days before the event. The pin was going to start where it was in R1 and then was supposed to move to the alternate for R2. Maybe the alternate anchor got dented from the mower or some rocks tossed into it the night before the event. The TD doesn't know this or maybe did discover it but forgot to mention that or maybe there wasn't a player meeting before R2. So, these guys think the pin is in the wrong spot like the example but then can't insert the pin in that alternate anchor due to dent or rocks. Then what? Per the rules, you play the course as you find it other than where you are allowed to move casual items.
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