Falling putt or holed out?

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Falling putt or holed out?

Postby 7ontheline » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:28 am

If I putt inside the circle, balanced and in control on one leg behind my mini, and the disc comes to rest in the chains/tray/supported by the pole thus "holed out" can I then advance to the basket to retrieve my putter OR do I have to put my other foot down behind my mini in order to demonstrate to the uncoordinated haters that I am in control and not establishing a point of support in front of my mini?
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby turso » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:40 am

You have to put your foot behind the mini to demonstrate balance. I'd do that, pick up the mini, stand up calmly and then go for the basket if I had a chance of winning something.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Itchy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:56 am

803.04C
Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the
thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the
marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full
control of balance before advancing toward the hole.



You don't HAVE to put your foot down... only thing the rules require you to do is demonstrate full control. Unfortunately, whether or not you demonstrated full control is up to the people on your card. If the uncoordinated haters on your card call you on it, you get a warning and have to reputt (the first time 2+ call you on it). If you really want to play it safe, you can walk 10 feet away behind your mini, then low crawl to pick up your mini, all while never preceding in front of your lie. I pick up my mini on one leg all the time, it's totes mcgoats legal.

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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 pm

Putting your other foot down behind the mini is one way to demonstrate balance but not the only way. If you putt, put your other foot down and then fall over toward the basket, it's a falling putt.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:53 pm

Option A: after every putt keep your foot in the air... then go into the karate kid pose. It would show balance and be awesome at the same time.


Option B : put the foot down purely so the haters on your card don't get mad you're beating them and call you on it.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby JHern » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:54 pm

A buzzz and a beer wrote:Option A: after every putt keep your foot in the air... then go into the karate kid pose. It would show balance and be awesome at the same time.


That's exactly what I do after every putt. Then I glare at, hiss, spit, and kick in the direction of other players on my card.

A buzzz and a beer wrote:Option B : put the foot down purely so the haters on your card don't get mad you're beating them and call you on it.


I have to say, this doesn't necessarily satisfy the spirit of the rule. I've had putts inside the circle where I feel over-balanced in the forward direction, but straightened my knees and spine to slow the forward fall, then stretching my off foot down briefly behind the mini, and then acting like I'm pushing off of the off foot to launch forward to retrieve my disc out of the basket. I see a lot of people do this, but I really try to avoid it and I think it is not in the spirit of the rule. Showing balance, at least to me in the strictest sense, means being able to bring all support points down behind the line perpendicular to the back of the mini and then stay behind the mini indefinitely. Perhaps a rule requiring 5 seconds before any supporting point comes down in front of the line would do the trick, and eliminate this trickery?
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:46 am

JHern wrote:
A buzzz and a beer wrote:Option A: after every putt keep your foot in the air... then go into the karate kid pose. It would show balance and be awesome at the same time.


That's exactly what I do after every putt. Then I glare at, hiss, spit, and kick in the direction of other players on my card.

A buzzz and a beer wrote:Option B : put the foot down purely so the haters on your card don't get mad you're beating them and call you on it.


I have to say, this doesn't necessarily satisfy the spirit of the rule. I've had putts inside the circle where I feel over-balanced in the forward direction, but straightened my knees and spine to slow the forward fall, then stretching my off foot down briefly behind the mini, and then acting like I'm pushing off of the off foot to launch forward to retrieve my disc out of the basket. I see a lot of people do this, but I really try to avoid it and I think it is not in the spirit of the rule. Showing balance, at least to me in the strictest sense, means being able to bring all support points down behind the line perpendicular to the back of the mini and then stay behind the mini indefinitely. Perhaps a rule requiring 5 seconds before any supporting point comes down in front of the line would do the trick, and eliminate this trickery?


In tournament rounds, at least among the upper divisions, there is seldom an issue. So seldom that in hundreds (thousands?) of tournament rounds I don't recall it ever coming up-in the UPPER DIVISIONS. The players know and follow the rule of demonstrating balance. It ain't all that complex. Obviously in the lower divisions there are all manner of foot faults which go unnoticed, uncalled and not understood: just like in many casual rounds. But in the lower divisions all manner of weird rule misunderstandings regularly occur. That is why God made Am 4, a training ground for those not yet righteous.

There is a clear disadvantage to any form or habit which does not CLEARLY demonstrate balance: you might get called on it by your group. Knowing this, as players move up in the ranks, they learn to do what all the other good players do. Which is to plant both feet down behind their lie after they putt and before they move forward to retrieve their disc. Yeah, verily, this is righteous behavior.

Changing a rule to fix a non-existent problem will only make our rules longer and more complex. The rule is not broken there is no reason to get all lawyerly on it.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby juju » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:29 am

I stand on one foot, touch my index finger to my nose, and begin to recite the alphabet. I have never been called for a falling putt with that routine.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:26 am

Jhern: I know exactly what you are describing. It is not showing balance so technically would be a foot fault. But most people do let it slide because they either don't know better, or they just give you a break. I know I have seen this before and not said anything. However, if I saw the same person do it more than once or twice I would go over to them and nicely inform them that it is technically a foot fault. If they then did it again I would call them on it. When I say "put the foot down" I mean to clearly rest your back foot. This is why many people also pick up their mini too.

Mark: I agree with the upper ranks knowing. I think it is even a fair assumption that they can clearly tell balance if the person doesn't even put their foot down. I also think that the int and rec divisions are for learning these small things. I do think that in these divisions people should politly describe the rule and what was wrong to the person before calling them out to the whole group. I know I even go over this stuff with casuals I see at league or just on the course.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

A buzzz and a beer wrote:Mark: I agree with the upper ranks knowing. I think it is even a fair assumption that they can clearly tell balance if the person doesn't even put their foot down. I also think that the int and rec divisions are for learning these small things. I do think that in these divisions people should politly describe the rule and what was wrong to the person before calling them out to the whole group. I know I even go over this stuff with casuals I see at league or just on the course.


Hahaha. Life is too short to call foot faults on beginners. If a player is foot faulting habitually I will eventually wait for them to do it again, count out loud to 4 then explain to the group how the rule works (a foot fault must be called within 3 seconds to be valid so my call is not even a warning). Many of them look at me in disbelief, thinking I must be kidding them.

In casual rounds I will tell any beginner (who seems to care) when they foot fault so they can learn the rule and protect themselves in the future. There is a certain type of casual player with an obvious disdain for the formal rules. Most of them can't hit a line with or without foot faulting so it doesn't matter.

Even Pros will occasionally foot fault from difficult lies, including me. I want players to tell me when I do because on throws with full run ups I don't watch where my feet land, looking instead at the target or the line. If you don't know that you screwed up you can't fix it. The key to learning not to foot fault is to practice upshots/fairway drives from a mini.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:Even Pros will occasionally foot fault from difficult lies, including me. I want players to tell me when I do because on throws with full run ups I don't watch where my feet land, looking instead at the target or the line. If you don't know that you screwed up you can't fix it. The key to learning not to foot fault is to practice upshots/fairway drives from a mini.



This is one of the main things I am planning on practicing this season. Run ups behind a mini. This was a really weak part of my game last year. I would end up thinking so much about where my foot was going to land I would be paying more attention to that then my throw. I would then have a bad throw. I ended up just doing all stand stills or one steps because of this. It really affected my game.

What I am planning on doing this year is to spend a lot of time in the field practicing behind a mini. I am thinking about doing what field goal kickers do. Find out the exact amount of steps back and possibly to the side. Then just practice that over and over again.

Btw, is the distance your foot has to land behind the mini on a run up the same as when putting? 11inches with some point hitting the middle of the line?
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:19 pm

If you can't throw well without a run-up you're complicating things with a run-up. You should be practicing to throw as far as possible with control with no run-up. Only use a run-up when you must throw farther than your stand and deliver throw, even on the tee. So many players would develop more accuracy if they practiced this, especially when tackling wooded routes.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:17 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If you can't throw well without a run-up you're complicating things with a run-up. You should be practicing to throw as far as possible with control with no run-up. Only use a run-up when you must throw farther than your stand and deliver throw, even on the tee. So many players would develop more accuracy if they practiced this, especially when tackling wooded routes.


I have the opposite philosophy: I believe in run ups.

Run ups integrate your body's motion and power into a shot. It is easier on your arm and shoulder and easier (at least for me) to hit a line. Outside of roughly 100 feet I prefer some degree of run up, depending on the power needed to make the shot. Standing still and throwing hard forces a more violent burst of power to get the same distance. A smooth run up allows a more graceful and flowing shot.

Watch the smoothest players out there. They all use run ups.

Run ups can be mastered with practice, like any other skill.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:05 am

Note that you cannot always run up. But you can always stand and deliver. Thus, the simple logic of learning to throw as far and as accurately as possible with no run up needed. You throw primarily forehand and I throw backhand so that may make a difference. I'm guessing my knees may be in better shape although not necessarily due to disc golf?

The same logic also follows for champs like Barry schultz who have determined that straddle putting is the most logical primary putting stance. You can almost always straddle putt from most locations. In fact you usually have two stance options to the left and right from your mini. There's only one foot forward alignment and you are hindered from doing that many times in the woods.
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Re: Falling putt or holed out?

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:22 pm

I prefer a small run up, even if its only a very small x-step. I feel I am much smoother with a small run up. Also on the forehand vs backhand I think that standstill forehands are much more comfortable and easy to get off then backhands. The main reason is at almost any stance you can get off a forehand. Backhands require a lot more body movement.

Overall to be successful you need to be able to do both standstills and run-ups. There is going to be a case where you need both.
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