Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:07 pm

DaPats wrote:The tightness comes at the hit. The firm grip helps with all your muscles to pull the disc through the body faster from the reach back.


I don't throw 500', so most of what I have to say is what has improved my throw. The finger soreness is something individual to me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:14 pm

black udder wrote:
I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


For pure snap throws that is correct. Some of the best can accelerate their pull and then snap on top of that. Blake calls that whip plus snap.

For predominately snap throws, the move to the forward apex or "loft" should be more of a float. That is why I call it a loft.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby DaPats » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:37 pm

Its cool BU. Not trying to argue with you at all. just trying to let you know how I throw and what I have learned from just watching vids, reading articles, and other people throw. Its a good discussion.

If you don't start your pull from the reach back then you are not going to get that extra arm speed or power that you need when you get your hand to your right pec to explode from there.

If you get a chance read the article on the fork grip from Carlton Howard in Disc Golfer magazine if you get it. Its a great read on a tight grip and how the disc should rip out of your hand instead of trying hard to snap your wrist. Thats how I throw.

Not everyone throws the same, even the top pros like Climo Jenkins Rico Kallstrom Brinster. They all have a little something different in their throws from each other. But one thing they all do the same is explode at the hit and let the disc rip out of their hands. The "hit" that everyone searches for.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blake_T » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:09 pm

I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


you actually don't "pull" until way late... like when your wrist is forcing itself open.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:22 pm

Blake_T wrote:
I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


you actually don't "pull" until way late... like when your wrist is forcing itself open.


I think for the sake of clarity we need more precise terms. One does move the arm from reach back to elbow forward. One does rotate the shoulders lightning fast for about 10-15 degrees relative to the hips as the elbow chop is occuring. If one calls the shoulder turn and the arm motion from reach back to elbow forward a pull and the following elbow opening from bent to straight a chop things might read like this: You pull the disc from reach back until the elbow is well toward the target far away from the side with the chest pointing 90 degrees left of the target at elbow reaching maximum distance away from the side. Then hip explosion and leg twist will turn the torso close to facing the target. When the elbow chop opens the arm straight the wrist will snap forward (either from bent back to neutral or right of neutral/straight to right depending on style) and while that is happening the shoulder turn should accelerate to max. The shoulders should start turning before the wrist snaps so that tendons of the arm get stretched more to store additional power that is released by snapping the wrist open faster.

Where things get interesting is if you also _pull_ the elbow back to bent after you've straightened it. This would happen during the wrist snapping open and the disc pivoting. Another motion that could use the term pull. Maybe we should nominate all the interesting motions and give them names. Or an article writer defines them and we start using them. IMO the less we change the terms in use currently the less we confuse people later if they read an article with differing definitions of terms from those that have been written on the forums so far.

One thing that isn't discussed often here is moving the upper arm right from the shoulder socket. I haven't seen any term for this either to separate it from the motions of the other body parts terminologically. That's why one needs to type a long description of it each time it's mentioned. I'm not 100 % sure but following the kinetic chain principle and the need to accelerate hard late in the throw one would think it should start after the shoulders start turning before the wrist opens. Moving the arm right from the shoulder socket for a RHBH throw accelerating that motion as the disc pivots between the index finger/thumb pinch adds more angular velocityon the disc edge. That is spins the disc faster=bgger snap. Provided the disc won't slip out early.

If we had a common terminology for each body part motions, meaning some concepts could be made to differentiate different parts of the motion made by the same body part to differentiate the not so important part from the real deal, we might get precise description. That people would be less likely to interpret differently. And Blake wouldn't have to explain things all over again for the eight year. This sort of precision in an article detailing how to get big snap is important for people learning and not having to come to the forums to ask for clarification again and again. That is the current situation. The current articles mean well and get more useful once you know the key things that the articles describe too vaguely for the uninitiated. For those that don't yet know the keys yet they don't accelerate the learning as well as they should.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:06 am

The final round footage of Nokia Open is on youtube.
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5tDDtk ... re=channel
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punIlQ8d ... re=channel
part3 coming soon
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby MrScoopa » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:32 am

A lot of pictures and the above head footage would help( is helping - your drawings ) in clarifying these terms. It will take some studying to get the concepts in. Thank you for doing this by the way!
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:44 am

Blake_T wrote:
I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


you actually don't "pull" until way late... like when your wrist is forcing itself open.


I pull hard a few inches before that, as the hand goes around the nose into the apex. this is alos the only place my grip tightens. The hard pull is to make the hand round out the turn around the nose and then make the wrist violently fly open using the emerging angles.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:12 am

Bradley Walker wrote:
Blake_T wrote:
I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


you actually don't "pull" until way late... like when your wrist is forcing itself open.


I pull hard a few inches before that, as the hand goes around the nose into the apex. this is alos the only place my grip tightens. The hard pull is to make the hand round out the turn around the nose and then make the wrist violently fly open using the emerging angles.


and, to me, this is where the timing comes in, right? I mean, if you throw the way you're saying (Brad), then you're max distance is when you hit it perfectly in time and you get less the less perfectly you hit it, right?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:08 am

black udder wrote:
Bradley Walker wrote:
Blake_T wrote:
I do believe that your statement above is incorrect though as my understanding is that you don't pull from the reach back. You pull late - right pec area or later (if I understood Blake correctly). Up to the pull you're just guiding.


you actually don't "pull" until way late... like when your wrist is forcing itself open.


I pull hard a few inches before that, as the hand goes around the nose into the apex. this is alos the only place my grip tightens. The hard pull is to make the hand round out the turn around the nose and then make the wrist violently fly open using the emerging angles.


and, to me, this is where the timing comes in, right? I mean, if you throw the way you're saying (Brad), then you're max distance is when you hit it perfectly in time and you get less the less perfectly you hit it, right?


That's my experience so far.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blake_T » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:38 pm

something to be known about this is that if your form is missing the basic few fundamentals, working on snap is rather moot since you'll be blocking yourself from getting it and it will basically be an exercise in frustration.

before attempting to work snap you should:
1. have a sound, fundamental grip (wrist down, etc.)
2. be able to throw with shoulder rotation (not everyone does)
3. have a pull line that keeps the disc close to the body.
4. have no problems with getting your weight forward (unless you are content only throwing hyzers).
5. be able to throw without "strong arming" the disc.
6. be able to throw without jamming your pivot (aka allowing for yourself to clear the hip).
7. be able to throw without significant OAT.

without those 7 things, you probably aren't getting 350'. without those 7 things, you will be unable to hit the positions/timing needed to adequately learn/understand snap.

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:38 pm

What is number 5?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blake_T » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:39 pm

the arm should not be rigid until the point of impact.

many people tend to yank with the arm from the reach back to release using arm strength. this yields very little arm speed and very little power. aka strong-arming.

a disc golf throw is just like most other sports and martial arts. you "flow" to the point of impact and then get strong to deliver force. the separation is similar in a baseball swing from making contact with the ball to driving the ball. you are relaxed until the point of contact and then unload in order to drive it. if the unloading never happens you just slap the ball. if you are rigid going into the point of contact you will have very little bat speed and/or be a dead pull hitter (the same behavior happens when players break their wrists during a swing before contact).

strong arming is equivalent to trying to hit a golf ball with your arms fully flexed once you start forward from your backswing.

it's easier to learn to "hit" a disc golf throw by throwing with a limp arm than it is if you are strong arming a disc.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:19 pm

OK.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:07 pm

tumpsi wrote:The final round footage of Nokia Open is on youtube.
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5tDDtk ... re=channel
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punIlQ8d ... re=channel
part3 coming soon

Final part3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2GswApPEfs (Ville throws an 475'ish forehand on the first tee of this vid btw.)
Final part4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR_yjMPX1hg (, and a 400' tommy up a 3-4m hill on the #22.)
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