Snap and recoil

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Postby Discoman » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:00 pm

Just wanted to say that this whole discussion along with the relaxing the arm thread has been very helpful to my throws, I am getting this throw thing on a deeper level now...again. Bradley your willingness to try something extreme and not just going with what you already knew sort of worked has sparked this whole thing, Thanks!
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Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:43 am

Blake_T wrote:in that video i have shown an exaggerated version of what tendon bounce is, but not the actual harnessing of it. with most big throwers, the motion is maybe 1/4" towards wrist closed followed by ~1/2" of wrist open and pulled through the shot to impart maximum force onto the disc.


I think this is what I am feeling and calling "recoil". There is a lot of "closing" of the wrist leading into the snap/rip (as the disc passes the chest) but this not necessarily ultilized into the actual "snap". There is tremendous power from just the correct manipulation of the tiny bit of "recoil" and how this energy is imparted into the disc to create a hard rip.

I am going to say this is much more important than trying to learn a big long pull, huge coil, or fast run up. Especially if you want to have any clue where the thing is going.

One thing this whole recoil/snap/rip focus has taught me is that I have had very little clue where the disc really was when i let go of it. Most of my ability to hit the broad side of a barn has been in athletic ability. I apparently am pretty good at adding little twists and torques with my body to get the disc pointed in the general direction I want it to go. When my body is tight or injured I suck.

Focusing on trying to find the spot where the disc "recoils" and "rips", how this relates to my plane and body, how it relates to my GRIP and the orientation of the disc is now the only thing I am going to work on. I literaly want to know exactly what that disc looks like in reation to the intended line, angle, trajectory ext when I impart the greatest force.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:33 am

There is tremendous power from just the correct manipulation of the tiny bit of "recoil"


this is what dunipace called "tendon bounce."

I am going to say this is much more important than trying to learn a big long pull, huge coil, or fast run up. Especially if you want to have any clue where the thing is going.


i agree, and this is easiest with the bent elbow technique and focusing on a strong finish.
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Postby rehder » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:06 am

Doesnt everybody use bent elbow technique? Even when you stretch out your arm on the reachback. Because when you pull the disc forward the elbow will reach maximum bend by the time the disc reaches/passes the chest?

The whole snap thing is very intrueging and I want it, the problem is where can I get it? Towelsnapping/palmslapping is only achieved by the rapid stopping motion which causes the tendon bounce, but the faster you accelerate ie. the more potential energy you build up to be released into the towelsnap/palmslap. This would seem to decrease accuracy instead of decreasing it, because the faster you whip around the more timing critical everything becomes. Im wondering if the disc trying to force itself out of the hand because of the centrifugal force has anything to with the tendonbounce, that it causes it, instead of the other way around.

The above are as much statements as they are questions. Answers, questions and comments very much appreciated
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:39 am

inertia during the pull is the main cause of tendon bounce. centrifugal force attempting to pull the disc from the hand is caused by a change in direction of the arm motion.

not everyone throws with bent elbow, as a straight reach back tends to breed improper strength focus and timing (people go for whip power instead of finish power).

the key to timing, is that you get progressively faster into and through the rip. this makes it extremely accurate because focusing on your finish forces you to finish on an aimed line.
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Postby rehder » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:16 am

whip power instead of finish power


I must be daft, because I cant really see the difference between the two. Isnt the whip creating the inertia for the tendon bounce?

Later edit:
I think Im getting a good rip of of my indexfinger, because after I have played a round, my index finger feels like it has a mild sprain or like it has been jammed.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:41 pm

body placement is more important than whip in terms of priming the wrist/forearm tendons. if you get tons of whip but have your arm way out wide from your body, you will have little if any tendon priming.

whip/placement covers how to PRIME the forearm/wrist.

if you wish to TRANSFER the potential force/energy into the disc, that happens during the finish.

finish = harnessing potential power. more whip = more potential power. more whip = more difficult to time the finish.

you can throw 450' with relatively little whip, but you will peak out at like 380' if you have relatively little finish/snap power. to go 600' you need both.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 pm

So there is

whip
bounce
finish

????

What is "whip"? What is the differnence btween arm speed and whip. I know there is wrist closing as the disc passes the chest, but I guess I do not know how to utilize this pre closing of the wrist as part of the hit.

What is a strong finish? Do you mean an extended finish, or a long arcing finsih that puts your arm way around to 6 oclock?
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:14 pm

the bounce happens incidentally and it is a biproduct of keeping the disc close. i consider it to be part of the finish, because it is during the finish that the bounce is harnessed.

if you are going over 450', trust me, you already harness it.

getting to distances beyond that are factors of line and armspeed/disc speed while maintaining the same amount of snap (momentum = low speed penetration, is a factor of mass and velocity with a drag coefficient).

whip and arm speed differ because it is whip that generates armspeed. whip is like cracking a whip. the end gets going faster than the handle because of the uncoiling motion.

a strong finish = pulling THROUGH the rip strong and well timed. your hand should be moving faster slightly after the disc leaves the hand than slightly before the disc leaves the hand. if you are accelerating in that manner, it should be almost painful to not have your upper body continue to at least 3 o'clock, if not more.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:07 pm

OK, I got one.

The more I try to gain contact with disc the more restricted my "snap" becomes (close to open wrist). The more the disc is down in my fingers the better my wrist works.

This is similar to a golf grip, too much in the palm restricts the hinging of the wrist. The more the grip is in the fingers the more freely the wrist works.

Also, it seems the more the disc rim gets into the crease of my hand the more the fingers want to open. Try this...push your finger into the center of your palm of your other hand...try to work your fingers.

Long story short it almost seem the less palm contact I have with the disc the better for an unrestricted snap.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:56 pm

Blake_T wrote:if you are going over 450', trust me, you already harness it.


I have been practicing on the Owens Sausage Farm land next to my house. The soccer folks have taken over the local park.

One of the things about the farm plot is that no one else uses it but me so I can mark distances. I have been throwing at a drainage hole marked with stakes. I paced it off at 152 yards from my throwing spot. This is my max distance right now with the colder air with max distance discs like the Wriath, TeeRex , and Inferno. I am very consistent to within about 30' of this with Preds, Starfires and Avengers.

Tonight my wife and I measured the distance to the drainage hole with a tape at 440'. So I was off 14'.

The mark to 500' seems like it is a mile past the 440' mark...
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Postby rehder » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:49 am

Is it possible for you to get some video of a throw? and upload it somewhere?
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:37 am

rehder wrote:Is it possible for you to get some video of a throw? and upload it somewhere?


I might do that when I feel I have my form at least in the "ballpark" of where I want it to be.

I am getting closer!!! My form is all over the map, as everything feels foreign. Just now I am starting to find my OWN groove that I like and produces consistent results. Too much tinkering can be bad.

If anyone wants to know how far they are throwing, stop by the Owens Farm.
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Postby rehder » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:56 pm

It doesnt matter that you dont have perfect form. Hell as far as Im concerned I think I could learn more from seeing "any" other form. See if it possible to spot the good and and the not so good parts of a throw.

I went out for a short while today, and tried the "more finishing power" aproach. That is I didnt go for a long reachback and didnt accelerate as ealy as I usually do, but focussed instead on accelerating through the hit. At times I would do a 360. What I found was that at times I got some nice flights, but it seemd much harder to aim/time the rip because that window just got smaller. I dont think I got much snap either, but of course its hard to tell since I have no vid of myself. I also think it doesnt help that Im bundled up atm. because of the cold and wet weather right now.
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Postby deaddisc » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:43 pm

rehder wrote:I went out for a short while today, and tried the "more finishing power" aproach. That is I didnt go for a long reachback and didnt accelerate as ealy as I usually do, but focussed instead on accelerating through the hit. At times I would do a 360. What I found was that at times I got some nice flights, but it seemd much harder to aim/time the rip because that window just got smaller. I dont think I got much snap either, but of course its hard to tell since I have no vid of myself. I also think it doesnt help that Im bundled up atm. because of the cold and wet weather right now.


Ive found for myself that any change in the way I throw always takes a while to get comfortable with (especially aiming of the throw), regardless of cold/wet/nice weater. Just stick with it and Im sure you will be realizing some positive results.
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