How to adjust spin vs. speed

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How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby JHern » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:16 pm

Black Udder recently wrote on another thread that a good player can adjust the amount of spin vs. the amount of speed they impose on any given throw.

This would be a very useful thing to be able to do, and would allow one to increase the utility and number of possible lines of any disc in the bag. (My own bag is getting heavy with discs, and maybe learning this skill would allow me to reduce the number of discs.)

Could any of the experts here describe how this is done? And is it done differently at different distances...say at each of 100 ft, 200 ft, 300 ft, 400 ft, is the method for changing the spin rate different?
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby cmlasley » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:35 pm

The only throw where I actively try to throw with less spin is a turnover. If I have to start a disc with hyzer and get it to land to the right, I focus less on snap. It seems if I focus too much on snap, some of my discs will hold the line too well. I'm not sure mechanically what I'm doing, but I feel like my wrist is more dead. It is hard to explain.

The only time I throw with less arm speed is when I throw my putters. Everything else in my bag can take full arm speed. Certain discs, like Comets, for instance, take less armspeed and more snap to get out there a long way. I throw Rocs, though, which are highspeed stable enough to go just go straight no matter how fast I throw them.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby JR » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:37 pm

I'm not sure how right or efficient I am but here goes. Because I regard myself as small snap thrower and can fall back on strong arming when I want to and sometimes when not :-) I can't tell how the things look like from the perspective of a big snap thrower.

Changing run up step amount, stepping speed, the amount of turning away from the target, the length of the reach back variations, changing speed on throws just like the variation of acceleration point of the arm adjusts the speed part of the equation. Grip strength lessening may allow micro slips that reduce spin. In extreme cases of slowing down/not turning away/not reaching back you're putting. But you don't want a lot of spin on the disc or it'll spit out more easily.

For more spin on shorter throws one could actively cock the wrist back a lot and with a conscious effort extend the hand from the wrist past neutral as quickly as you can. Then try to stop the wrist motion just like on drives. This way a stand still putting motion can have the disc land flat at 3' and rocket to the side on landing due to the extra spin. I'm not sure how well this would work on a full force drive because the timing requirements and stresses on the arm are more than I can handle at the moment. With more recuperation and muscle power I might be able to pull something like this off.

On turnovers that I want to land annied I throw fast to allow the flip but also try to get all of my measly spin on it as well to help keeping the anny. And use a flippy non flexing little fading disc to allow a little margin of error to speed generation. Disc selection is more important when tired when there's danger of not getting enough on the disc.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby Blake_T » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:54 pm

in most cases, people cannot manipulate the amount of spin by a great enough magnitude to where it would make a noticeable difference in flight.

similarly, in most cases where people attempt to throw with less spin, what actually happens is that they slow their arm down before they enter the power zone and the result is greater wrist extension. greater wrist extension = more nose down = more turn.

in many cases where people attempt to throw with more spin, what actually happens is that they enter the power zone zone with too much speed and get less wrist extension (especially because they often exaggerated how far they are curled around the disc). the end result is less nose down and a more overstable flight path.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby black udder » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:21 pm

I didn't say anything before because I wanted to hear what was possible, but my intention by that comment was that the better players are able to throw with more than just spin or more than just arm power. They incorporate both so they get an even throw. If you are predominantly either, it will produce a totally different flight from one with an appropriate amount of spin/power.

Interesting to know that it's not something that's really adjusted... guess that answers one question, right JHern? :)
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby JR » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:25 am

There's one way to consistently tone down speed dominance after you learn late acceleration. Sneaking speed steps with eyes locked on target to avoid reaching back too far exaggeratedly slow arm pull to right pec position or later and then only start to use power from the arm alone. How much arm acceleration rate is determined by the distance requirement. You don't always need 100 % acceleration from the arm each time.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby masterbeato » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:29 pm

forwarded:

"i do not try to spin it, nor do i not try to spin it."
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby JHern » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:18 pm

Interesting responses, indeed!

I also asked an old veteran at a local course about this yesterday, and he actually had a method for modulating spin that involved moving the location of the hit out away from his body (i.e., to the left). I guess this is like changing how close you get the disc to your chest on the pull. He said this gives less snap, less spin, and more flippy behavior from the disc...he was getting nice anhyzers doing this with a JLS, which held the line very nicely. I tried it a couple times myself, but it didn't work the way I meant it (both times it shanked into a tree instead).
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby masterbeato » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:17 pm

if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby JR » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:26 pm

masterbeato wrote:if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.


Which may not be bad if one wants to anny to the right anyway.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby bcsst26 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 am

JR wrote:
masterbeato wrote:if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.


Which may not be bad if one wants to anny to the right anyway.


Yeah but sucks if you have a beat in roc and it anny's to much. Personal experience on this one.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby garublador » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:08 am

I wouldn't even know how to tell whether or not I had any sort of effect on spin on a drive, let alone try to control how much spin is or isn't there.

I can see it for approaches, though.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby pg043 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:06 am

I've recently been paying attention to this. There is a hole at my home course with a wide straight fairway to the pin and a tighter hyzer line on the right side. The hole is only around 225'. Most people don't throw the hyzer line, and when they watch me do it, they tell me they've never even thought of it. This is not surprising, since it's so much smaller and less inviting. Also, it's more difficult to park because of how far right to left the disc has to move in a relatively small distance after hitting a tight gap. It occurred to me the other week that the way i was making this shot work was by trying to throw with more spin and less power. The way I accomplish it (I think) is by following through less, and instead trying to kind of short arm snap the disc. The effect is to send the disc out with a lot of spin, but without a ton of speed, and it allows me to get the right to left flight i need over a short distance.
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby masterbeato » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:22 pm

pg043 wrote:I've recently been paying attention to this. There is a hole at my home course with a wide straight fairway to the pin and a tighter hyzer line on the right side. The hole is only around 225'. Most people don't throw the hyzer line, and when they watch me do it, they tell me they've never even thought of it. This is not surprising, since it's so much smaller and less inviting. Also, it's more difficult to park because of how far right to left the disc has to move in a relatively small distance after hitting a tight gap. It occurred to me the other week that the way i was making this shot work was by trying to throw with more spin and less power. The way I accomplish it (I think) is by following through less, and instead trying to kind of short arm snap the disc. The effect is to send the disc out with a lot of spin, but without a ton of speed, and it allows me to get the right to left flight i need over a short distance.


similarly, in most cases where people attempt to throw with less spin, what actually happens is that they slow their arm down before they enter the power zone and the result is greater wrist extension. greater wrist extension = more nose down = more turn.


when people try not to spin it they slow down before the power zone and get that greater wrist extension, it results in more spin.

in many cases where people attempt to throw with more spin, what actually happens is that they enter the power zone with too much speed and get less wrist extension (especially because they often exaggerated how far they are curled around the disc). the end result is less nose down and a more overstable flight path.


when people attempt to throw with more spin, they go too fast into the power zone and get less wrist extension, resulting in less spin when they try to spin it.

nose down orientation of the disc is when the hand is positioned behind the disc. wrist extending from closed, to open.

so once again i repeat: "i do not try to spin it nor do i not try to spin it."
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Re: How to adjust spin vs. speed

Postby Timko » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:44 pm

Could adjusting your grip change the speed/spin ratio? Almost like the difference between a pitcher's change-up and their fastball: same arm angle, same power into the throw, but the grip changes the amount of power transferred to the ball (or disc, in our case). I'm not stating this as fact or anything (I don't like to change my power/smash factor unless I absolutely have to, then I normally mess it up), but I think it's good conjecture.
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