Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby uNicedmeMan » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:25 am

Thanks for that Keltik!

I think I fluctuate between the two styles but have a lot more success with the "Swedish" style.

Which style do you think is easier on the body / requires the least amount of effort for similar distances? I'm thinking the "Swedish" is a bit easier.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:43 am

Personally I can't accelerate correctly with the Swedish style. With American It is like I am throwing a forehand. Much easier for me.

P.S. I have had a major breakthrough :D I'll share when I have vids. Thanks guys. This is exciting!
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:28 pm

I think this vid illustrates very well Blake_T's Swedish vs American throwing styles. the first thrower is Jesper Lundmark and the second is also a European (but younger) Oscar Stenfelt.


yah, that does somewhat contrast the two.

one of the signs of swedish technique is often a raised left arm. it's not raised in the newbie "pull under the arm" way, but more like they are cranking back for a lefty slap-shot or golf swing and the shoulders swing on a more vertical plane and pendulum the arm.

there's less elbow extension but it's easier to leverage the disc this way.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:40 am

My major breakthrough was simply learning how to stop the elbow! This has taken a lot of work. I have been practicing for the past week or two now every morning except one(around 1 1/2 hours each session). I have let my rounds with family go to crap, but not anymore! :)

Note: this is without ANY aid from my arm besides guiding it to the right positions.

It finally clicked. The motions I guide my arm through are: Pretend like I am trying to saw my torso in half with the disc. That keeps the disc close. Then I go into the "nudge one of my buddies with my elbow to look at a nice lady". Or trying to jab someone in the eye with your elbow. :? And making sure I don't start turning my shoulder. That keeps everything in a straight line and stops the elbow(eureka). Now lookie here I am at the right pec drill! At that point there is no stopping it. My forearm whips out so effortlessly YET fast as hell. Like you have written JHern I couldn't add arm speed then if I wanted to! The kinetic chain was linked to the disc.

I am hitting almost 300' from a standstill with just torso power. Stopping the elbow is the hardest thing, but once I got it - wow. The craziest thing I noticed is the speed of the disc towards the end of its flight. It looks slow but you can still tell it is penetrating the air.

Once I felt comfortable with the concept by doing at least 50 or so throws. I gave myself a treat. I took two wraiths. I threw one forehand which I can hit 350' feet easy with, and it was a beautiful flex shot. Then I did a bh incorporating a walking x-step - went through the same motions I did before, and I was within 20 feet of my forehand throw. That is unheard of for me. I don't know an exact distance, but it was over 300 and an unprecedented distance for me throwing bh without a hill.

I think that's it. Whew good day. It's all paying off. Thanks to everyone on here I've still got a ton to learn, but this is my biggest achievement!
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JR » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:51 am

You can add speed and probably do by using your muscles to actively straighten the arm from the right pec position forward. Elbow chop is incidental plus active component combined.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:15 am

You can add speed and probably do by using your muscles to actively straighten the arm from the right pec position forward. Elbow chop is incidental plus active component combined.


correct.

learning to stop the elbow to trigger the chop is one thing (this is how to enter the power zone with the correct timing/positions). learning to accelerate the chop to deliver more force is another (this is really how to increase power).

you can throw 360-380' pretty much limp arming it through the chop assuming the chop was triggered correctly. to get 460-480' you need to be able to power it correctly after the chop begins.

And making sure I don't start turning my shoulder.


this is correct. most people rotate too quickly, never allowing the chop to happen on its own. this is why with most players, their grip locks will fly disproportionately far compared to their straight throws.

The craziest thing I noticed is the speed of the disc towards the end of its flight. It looks slow but you can still tell it is penetrating the air.


this is probably more of a factor of nose down than velocity, but part of the mechanics of this is that it gives more nose down than it would otherwise. basically, it's a sign that things are happening "better" or "more correctly" than they were before.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby jppbkm » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:38 am

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll: .
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JR » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:57 am

jppbkm wrote:I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll: .


The elbow has stopped much earlier in the video. The hand shoots forward from the elbow being straight and everything from shoulder to wrist being pretty much stopped in place. Arm being straight at the onset of wrist stopping in place but opening. Wrist _too_ in addition to the elbow stays in relatively small space but the hand moves. And once the disc leaves the incidental motions and arm motion move the whole arm into follow through.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby cmlasley » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:11 pm

This is a great thread, guys. Thank you for all the participation. I mean it.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby zj1002 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:21 pm

yeah I am really digging some of the info in this thread. I max out in the 400-425 range and this thread has been super helpful in seeing some things I can change. I already knew some major flaws I have, but this has only reinforced exactly what I need to work on
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Steady 26542 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:32 pm

Agreed! Great thread. Now if I can just put it together. I know I've never stopped the arm. I'm always slinging it around my body. I try to use more elbow, but that didn't add much if any D. Leading with the torso did add some D but I still max out at 370' with a perfect throw with a Pro Boss. (Which I know I shouldn't be throwing... :mrgreen: ) On average, if I'm trying for max D I probably get around 325 on average with my MOLFs & SOLFs. I'm going to try working on stopping the arm. I think I understand what to do, I don't know how to do it yet or how it feels. To be continued...
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:58 pm

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here?


the video shows the behavior of the wrist during the chop. when the forearm/hand stops moving forward and changes direction to the right it releases the wrist. in those videos the wrist is snapping to neutral, but it should ideally extend to beyond neutral.

the elbow has to stop for the forearm to extend/chop. the forearm has to stop moving forwards (aka change directions) for the wrist to extend/snap.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:36 pm

correct.

learning to stop the elbow to trigger the chop is one thing (this is how to enter the power zone with the correct timing/positions). learning to accelerate the chop to deliver more force is another (this is really how to increase power).

you can throw 360-380' pretty much limp arming it through the chop assuming the chop was triggered correctly. to get 460-480' you need to be able to power it correctly after the chop begins.


I think I will practice limp arming it for a while. If I can get to a consistent 380' then that will keep me happy as I continue to work on accelerating more right before the hit.

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll:


What did it for me was just continuing to move my elbow towards the target, like I was nudging someone with it as my torso was turning. When I did that and my elbow stopped. Then the forearm swing-out took care of itself. If I moved my arm where the shoulder is attached I was spray way right - normally in a hyzer. It also caused me to lose power. Like Jhern was discussing you have to keep the shoulder kinda rigid.

Also, I have found you can only go so far with living room training. Things started really clicking when I went out and threw. The actions of barely whipping the hips, turning the torso, stopping the elbow, and flinging out the forearm don't feel as powerful as a "strong arm" throw, but when you feel that tug on your fingers and see the disc soar it almost makes you look twice. That is part of the reason I tried to bomb it out with my forehand. It was hard to believe the results at first with such seemingly little effort!
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:38 am

What did it for me was just continuing to move my elbow towards the target, like I was nudging someone with it as my torso was turning. When I did that and my elbow stopped. Then the forearm swing-out took care of itself. If I moved my arm where the shoulder is attached I was spray way right - normally in a hyzer. It also caused me to lose power. Like Jhern was discussing you have to keep the shoulder kinda rigid.

Also, I have found you can only go so far with living room training. Things started really clicking when I went out and threw. The actions of barely whipping the hips, turning the torso, stopping the elbow, and flinging out the forearm don't feel as powerful as a "strong arm" throw, but when you feel that tug on your fingers and see the disc soar it almost makes you look twice. That is part of the reason I tried to bomb it out with my forehand. It was hard to believe the results at first with such seemingly little effort!


another thing people can try to build the feeling is to hold a towel like you are throwing a disc and practice snapping it.

the towel should snap abruptly/cleanly and STRAIGHT AHEAD (with a noticeable pop). if the towel swings out and around, your timing and mechanics were off.

basically, a good timing pull = when you enter the follow through segment immediately beyond the hit, the tail of the towel will be dragging behind your hand. a bad timing pull = when you enter the follow through segment immediately beyond the hit the tail of the towel will already be beyond your hand.

i will say that it's not the easiest thing to integrate back into a throw. once you start generating the correct kind of snap (it will likely involve stopping some of the motions) that is actually where you need to be pulling through and applying force.

what makes snap so difficult to teach/learn is that most people's timing and positions are so f'd up that you need one set of drills to fix those and allow the correct motions to "flow" and then another set of drills to actually add power through the flowing motion.

i made a sweet diagram to show good vs. bad towel behavior:

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:45 am

PS:

if someone has a pc drawing tablet they would be willing to donate (or sell to me dirt cheap) my diagrams would likely increase slightly in quality/accuracy.
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