Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:04 pm

I have read about elbow chop in the instructional articles and in countless threads, but for some reason I overlooked it's importance or just did not understand it. I'm also certain now that my other friends who may be struggling are not are not getting that chop. I'm so excited to get out and drill this into my form. Too bad everything is coated in ice at the moment...


you can probably find a way to learn how to hit it with limited motion. it's actually best trying to learn to hit it using very limited motion.

i wouldn't focus much on the chop as this can be counter-productive. you don't force the chop to happen, the chop happens on its own and you make the chop stronger by accelerating and delivering force. being too rigid entering the chop will prevent the chop from happening with the correct timing/bio-mechanics.

here's a garage drill for you.

hang up a bed-sheet or something in the garage. draw a 1' x 1' square on it. stand 8-10' back and perform stationary right pec drills that begin with a 90 degree turn of the right shoulder (turning you from 180 degrees away to 90 degrees away) and a slight lean/weight shift over your pivot foot. the chop will happen then. your goal is to throw full power at the square. DO NOT physically pull at all until you have visual contact and you can feel things directed down the line towards the square.

the key here is not trying to throw hard at all until after the disc passes beyond your body towards the target. at that point it is already "into the chop".

DO NOT try to have a massive follow through. let a natural follow through happen.

DO NOT try to force the elbow to straighten all the way. chances are you'll find greater success when the elbow stays slightly bent.

start out relaxed and try to feel the timing and flow of the chop and the wrist extension near the hit.

if you are doing this correctly you will get MORE accurate the harder you try to throw. this is wholly dependent upon not trying to throw hard until the right time.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:44 pm

This has become an excellent thread now, I was hoping all of this was putting out the right scents, and that we might eventually draw out from hibernation and receive a masterful piece from Blake! Righteous!

One day it would be nice to write down an extensive summary of all of this in a really nice form (book form, maybe?), especially since so many people have found it to be useful. The material that has already been written here would form a great foundation. We can get Leopard and others to generate nice illustrations. And I could add the work that I've been doing on the physics of disc flight. We could also ask some pros if they'd like to contribute. And people who know about the manufacturing and design process to expound on the molding process, the history of molds, plastics, etc.. It would be a PhD level treatise on everything related to discs, disc throwing, and disc flight. I could also easily format the book and figures using latex, and generate PDF versions. I'll light a back-burner.

Even though I'm in California, I'm also stuck indoors and not able to practice much or get any rounds in. Now I know what you guys who live in real winter must feel like (well, not really...but sorta maybe). We've had a wicked bout of pineapple express that is lasting for days and days. Rain, gusts up to 60 MPH, trees banging against by bedroom at night, hail, flooding, mudflows, fallen trees, etc., it just keeps coming and coming. And I'm not opposed to throwing in the rain, either, but this stuff is impossible. Oh well. Maybe we're all jones-ing to get out and throw, and that's why we've been seeing better content on the posts lately!
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:35 pm

Thanks guys(all of you). I needed to get my head back on track. So much information I do get overwhelmed at times!

The basics: Let my core do the work up until the hit. I'll feel the weight of the disc.

I really enjoy reading all your posts Blake! They are so packed with info it took me reading it 3 times for it to start sinking in.
The part about the last 12" of the throw really hit a key. I think it will help me keep focused on worrying about the hit.

One slow day, no joke, I searched for and read through I don't know how many of your posts! :lol:
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JR » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:14 pm

lefty-hyzer wrote:edit: mafa, horrible example, standstill still shot that's doesn't prove/validate your point.....really?


I shot this footage and let me tell you that Avery did not a single one standing still throw. My Casio EX-F1 took 300 pictures per second in this clip. Watch the elbow angle of the right arm. See where it starts to open. It is indeed in the left pec area. Edit: Judging from where the disc is at the onset of elbow chopping.

I'm busy now as we got even better video news and my new sound card arrived :-) That means more work making the English commentary for Tali Open 2009. Provided the sound ain't bad and if it is oh well a more expensive card then. This means I won't be able to put words into those pics of why, what where, when and how it feels and which muscles work at which tension level changing into which tension where and when after which previous efforts in each picture trying to achieve what and why for a while. As you can guess from that it's gonna be a long one. I think it's best if it's done in several pieces. Later.
Last edited by JR on Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Redisculous » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:23 pm

lefty-hyzer wrote: standstill still shot


Clearly a link to the footage is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs

I've watched this at least a hundred times. I can't wait to see what else you guys have up your sleeve.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby gretagun » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:07 am

Blake_T wrote:
I have read about elbow chop in the instructional articles and in countless threads, but for some reason I overlooked it's importance or just did not understand it. I'm also certain now that my other friends who may be struggling are not are not getting that chop. I'm so excited to get out and drill this into my form. Too bad everything is coated in ice at the moment...


you can probably find a way to learn how to hit it with limited motion. it's actually best trying to learn to hit it using very limited motion.

i wouldn't focus much on the chop as this can be counter-productive. you don't force the chop to happen, the chop happens on its own and you make the chop stronger by accelerating and delivering force. being too rigid entering the chop will prevent the chop from happening with the correct timing/bio-mechanics.


Thanks Blake. I think I understand what you are saying.

One quick stupid question about the drill you posted. When you say "turning you from 180 degrees to 90 degrees away", are you referring to reachback? As in my shoulders should now be parallel to the target instead of perpendicular?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:13 am

When you say "turning you from 180 degrees to 90 degrees away", are you referring to reachback? As in my shoulders should now be parallel to the target instead of perpendicular?


shoulder turn, not reach back. start with your back facing the target and rotate in a controlled manner (not rushed) to the right shoulder facing the target. that motion triggers the elbow chop. if you unnaturally force the rotation to happen too quickly and without a pause at the 90 degree point (most players are guilty of this), the chop won't happen correctly.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:36 am

i have 2-3 minutes quick so i'll elaborate on something that people don't always understand correctly.

when i've written articles i've often talked about incidental motion. those are motions that happen because of other motions (and not because you try to make them). lots of important disc golf motions must be triggered incidentally but you can forcibly accelerate through them once the natural timing/uncoiling has begun. attempting to force the motion without its natural trigger will be much less powerful since it doesn't have all of the neat physics tricks associated with how the motions are supposed to be.

your right shoulder turns (while pulling the arm) and pauses around 90 degrees turn... the arm wants to keep going forward.
your elbow is moving forwards and pauses/slows down/changes direction from forwards to the right... at that point the forearm wants to keep going forward... and that is the chop.
the forearm is moving forwards and "runs out of room" and abruptly changes direction from moving forwards to moving to the right... at that point the hand/disc wants to keep going forward... and that is wrist extension.

the right pec drill consolidates the first 2 of these into one motion since you are already in (or very near) the elbow forward potision.

Brad's Phil drill isolates the wrist extension part of this.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:49 am

Maybe I'm delirious, but that all makes sense, Blake. While I know I'm not doing it all 100% correct, I have lots of timing issues to work on and still some form issues, I feel like I'm understanding what I'm supposed to do.

It's interesting because when I first arrived here, you probably posted something similar to what's in this thread before, but it didn't click. Now it all just seems to be so simple to understand. Not so much easy to do though :)
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby chiggins » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:13 pm

Blake_T wrote:the difficulty in timing occurs because:
-the forearm/elbow must be relaxed at the beginning of the extension but should be firm/strong near the end of the extension.
-the wrist/hand must be relaxed at the beginning of the extension but should be firm/strong near the end of the extension (and subsequent release of the disc).


I was talking to a co-worker of mine last week, he doesn't throw but he's been doing Shotokan Karate for 10 years or so. I was describing to him part of the throw I was trying to get, and he was showing me the basics of a punch, where the arm and fist are relaxed from the beginning and through the twist, with the goal being to flex/clench everything at the very end, what he called the "focus".

I tried applying this in the field, staying loose until the extension and then clenching down with the whole arm and fist at the point where I was backhanding the little person, and not only did I realize the "grip it like a motherfucker" part, but timing the acceleration felt like it was taking care of itself.

It also felt like it would take a few thousand repetitions before it felt natural, but it felt like a glimpse of the relaxed/strong thing. I don't know if that's helpful or not, but it was notable in this context.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:57 pm

This is indeed exactly the same as trying to harness your body's maximum potential in martial arts, and in many other sports too. Swinging a baseball bat or golf club, crushing an ace in tennis (I love those!), spiking hard in volleyball, kicking a field goal or punting with hang time over 5 seconds, etc., all have the same philosophies.

This is making me think about wanting to do a basic physical model of the backhand disc golf throw, in addition to the stuff I've already done on disc flight (I still need to make the flight simulator run properly, and give graphical output, but it is indeed moving forward). It should be possible to make a toy throwing model and play with all the parameters to see how different timing changes affect the outcome of the throw. Also to optimize where, when, and how force needs to be applied from different muscle groups. Wouldn't it be cool to have a sort of java-based model, with graphical animation, and parameters that one could adjust and see the results as they change this or that timing or force? One could even target specific areas of muscle development, strength, and kinetic training that will achieve optimal throws. Well, that's ambitious, but something that I could make over the long run. I suppose this is what people do in money sports, where they can afford to hire somebody like me to do this stuff full-time (that would be fun!).
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:16 pm

JR, the Youtube video is great. Is there any way you can post the movie file itself, as AVI or similar? It would be nice to be able to play with this video more than the youtube toggles allow.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby josser » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:03 pm

JHern wrote:JR, the Youtube video is great. Is there any way you can post the movie file itself, as AVI or similar? It would be nice to be able to play with this video more than the youtube toggles allow.


I use the "download as mp4" greasemonkey extension in firefox. Works like a dream. Search for "Install a Greasemonkey script" on
http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... files.html
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Redisculous » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:30 pm

Blake_T wrote:
the right pec drill consolidates the first 2 of these into one motion since you are already in (or very near) the elbow forward potision.

Brad's Phil drill isolates the wrist extension part of this.



Can anyone link to the Phil drill please?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 am

josser wrote:
JHern wrote:JR, the Youtube video is great. Is there any way you can post the movie file itself, as AVI or similar? It would be nice to be able to play with this video more than the youtube toggles allow.


I use the "download as mp4" greasemonkey extension in firefox. Works like a dream. Search for "Install a Greasemonkey script" on
http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... files.html


This works...
http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_ ... %3D&fmt=18

Cool tip! Thanks.
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