Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby nohr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:32 pm

JHern wrote:Two facts:

Fact 1: 300 ft is about as far as most men can throw using primarily the strength of their arm to propel the disc. For women it is closer to 230 ft.

Fact 2: The fact that you get the same distance no matter how you do your step implies that you aren't getting anything out of your legs, which drive your torso, which is the platform for your shoulders...

The sum:

Fact 1 + Fact 2 = You're strong-arming, throwing with your arm, and you're not getting much of anything from your torso and shoulders.

Your arm is of order 10X less powerful than your legs/torso. Stop throwing with your arm! Your arm is only useful for positioning and gripping, other than that, it is purely passive. Your arm needs to be turned into a whip that is driven by the powerful motion of your legs/hips/torso/shoulders.

Here's an exercise I might suggest:

Stand still with your arms at your side, completely relaxed. Turn your hips and torso back slowly and then rotate your hips quickly to the open position. Your arms should be whipped out and around in a windmill motion, without you using a single muscle in your arms. That's the feeling you should be aiming for.

Next do the same thing, except extend your throwing elbow out sideways from your body and hold it there (as if you put a vice around your shoulder). Allow your lower throwing arm and hand to hang limp from your elbow. Do it as if your arm were asleep and some mechanical device was locked onto your shoulder to keep the elbow pointed out side ways from your torso. Don't allow your elbow to move forward or backward, nor up nor down. It is completely locked in place, as if you no longer even had a shoulder joint and your upper arm were fused into your shoulder so that it would always point out sideways.

Now slowly turn your hips and torso back, and turn them abruptly open again. Don't use a single muscle in your arm! Now you should find that you've turned your arm into a whip. Your lower arm should be whipping forward super-fast. In fact, you can whip your lower arm forward way faster in this manner than your arm muscles could ever dream of doing. Your arm muscle strength decreases rapidly as speed increases, so they are useless anyways...trying to use them will only slow down this motion. You'll find that whipping your lower arm forward in this manner, with the elbow "stopped," will feel relatively effortless in comparison to trying to throw with your arm as you've probably been doing before.

Practice getting this feeling for a while. (Later you can work on the grip and positioning in finer detail, but for now focus on using your legs/hips/torso/shoulders as the powerful motor for whipping your arm forward.)




I was just messing around with Jherns swing your arms using your core. If anyone has martial arts training the feeling is almost like throwing a left roundhouse (for a rhbh thrower) . Throw a couple kicks then try and use that same motion but not kicking just pivoting on your right foot whipping your arm instead of a leg. I am excited to go throw after realizing this.

edit: copied exercise to help since a new page
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby DsmDisc » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:14 am

Excellent thread guys. I've been trying to incorporate a lot of what has been discussed here, and even though I've taken a couple steps back by destroying my form and starting from scratch, I can already tell this is going to help me improve in the long run.

It's not easy to swallow my pride and suck it up on the course for a few weeks, but its worth it!

Whoever said "think of it as twisting, not twirling' is brilliant. That helped me understand a large part of what I was doing wrong.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby josser » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:11 pm

nohr wrote:
JHern wrote:Two facts:

Fact 1: 300 ft is about as far as most men can throw using primarily the strength of their arm to propel the disc. For women it is closer to 230 ft.

Fact 2: The fact that you get the same distance no matter how you do your step implies that you aren't getting anything out of your legs, which drive your torso, which is the platform for your shoulders...

The sum:

Fact 1 + Fact 2 = You're strong-arming, throwing with your arm, and you're not getting much of anything from your torso and shoulders.

Your arm is of order 10X less powerful than your legs/torso. Stop throwing with your arm! Your arm is only useful for positioning and gripping, other than that, it is purely passive. Your arm needs to be turned into a whip that is driven by the powerful motion of your legs/hips/torso/shoulders.

Here's an exercise I might suggest:

Stand still with your arms at your side, completely relaxed. Turn your hips and torso back slowly and then rotate your hips quickly to the open position. Your arms should be whipped out and around in a windmill motion, without you using a single muscle in your arms. That's the feeling you should be aiming for.

Next do the same thing, except extend your throwing elbow out sideways from your body and hold it there (as if you put a vice around your shoulder). Allow your lower throwing arm and hand to hang limp from your elbow. Do it as if your arm were asleep and some mechanical device was locked onto your shoulder to keep the elbow pointed out side ways from your torso. Don't allow your elbow to move forward or backward, nor up nor down. It is completely locked in place, as if you no longer even had a shoulder joint and your upper arm were fused into your shoulder so that it would always point out sideways.

Now slowly turn your hips and torso back, and turn them abruptly open again. Don't use a single muscle in your arm! Now you should find that you've turned your arm into a whip. Your lower arm should be whipping forward super-fast. In fact, you can whip your lower arm forward way faster in this manner than your arm muscles could ever dream of doing. Your arm muscle strength decreases rapidly as speed increases, so they are useless anyways...trying to use them will only slow down this motion. You'll find that whipping your lower arm forward in this manner, with the elbow "stopped," will feel relatively effortless in comparison to trying to throw with your arm as you've probably been doing before.

Practice getting this feeling for a while. (Later you can work on the grip and positioning in finer detail, but for now focus on using your legs/hips/torso/shoulders as the powerful motor for whipping your arm forward.)




I was just messing around with Jherns swing your arms using your core. If anyone has martial arts training the feeling is almost like throwing a left roundhouse (for a rhbh thrower) . Throw a couple kicks then try and use that same motion but not kicking just pivoting on your right foot whipping your arm instead of a leg. I am excited to go throw after realizing this.


I have timing issues coming out the wazoo, but here's what is causing me grief. Keltik has a great video showing using your hips to get the disc from your your reach back into your front peck position. Assuming you want your hip motion to be one fluid motion, how do you get from using your hips to get the disc into the right pec position, have the brief shoulder pause/elbow chop, and then crack the whip. I can't seem to put these pieces together. Using my hips to get the disc into the front pec position and then cracking the whip kills what little shoulder pause I have.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:34 pm

Assuming you want your hip motion to be one fluid motion, how do you get from using your hips to get the disc into the right pec position, have the brief shoulder pause/elbow chop, and then crack the whip. I can't seem to put these pieces together. Using my hips to get the disc into the front pec position and then cracking the whip kills what little shoulder pause I have.


i think you mis-understand the hip motion as well as the order of events.

the brief shoulder pause = what gets the disc into the right pec position.

the hip does 2 quarter rotations. first one gets you to the power zone (aka point of contact). the second one happens as you release the elbow/wrist (aka the drive).

don't force the second pivot, it should happen if your body uncoils correctly with decent timing.

something i will reiterate, focus more upon how to unleash the disc and less about body positions. timing dominates body positions unless said positions are so f'd up that they block timing.

something to keep in mind:
when people's timing goes wacky i ask them what their goal is. most say arm speed, which if you are trying to max out arm speed at some point, your timing will be wacky. the goal of the throw is to launch the disc. how do you get to the spots to launch the disc? TRY to launch the disc. don't try to just get the disc "moving fast" in your hand.

this is the fundamental concept that plagues most throwers and keeps them from getting it. i would compare this to:
if a martial artist is attempting to break through a piece of wood, what should their focus be?
a) getting their hand moving as fast as possible.
b) breaking through the piece of wood.

if your shoulders are going "too fast" then the ENTIRE FOCUS OF YOUR THROW IS INCORRECT.

learning things like acceleration/snap/hit/etc. is tricky, but you have to be in a mental state that will help you learn it.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby josser » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:05 am

Blake_T wrote:if your shoulders are going "too fast" then the ENTIRE FOCUS OF YOUR THROW IS INCORRECT.


:(

Looks like it's time to start focusing on breaking through the wood.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:29 am

Looks like it's time to start focusing on breaking through the wood.


its a difference in mindset.

i can go over tons of technobabble and drills to help facilitate things. jhern can come up with mathematical equations modeling it. you can watch hours and hours of videos.

the reality of it is developing the mindset and building your throw around a correct focus.

all sports and martial arts revolve around the same 2 basic concepts:
-conservation of momentum
-delivering force

a pitcher in baseball isn't measured by how fast his arm will move, but how fast he can make the ball move. conservation of momentum is how the windup facilitates maximum power during the throw, but it's well-timed mechanics that actually launch the ball.

this is a fundamental difference from how most disc golfers approach the throw. i can tell when certain types of questions come up... because while they might seem relevant, they don't hold a lot of value in most cases.

delivering force = keying in on the power zone.
conservation of momentum = harnessing the motions of the body that lead you to the power zone.

with disc golf, delivering force is the primary factor.

unless you know how to snap a throw, things like the hips don't matter, because you don't need hips to snap a throw. once snap has been established, the mechanics of the hips can be added in a way that benefits the snap of the throw. etc.

there's so many comparisons that can be made with regular actions that some people get and others do not. imagine you are pushing a big crate with your hands. you can get close with bent arms, place your palms on the crate, and shove. that would be an example of delivering force. worrying too much about the pre-power zone aspects of the throw, or putting too much emphasis on arm speed, etc. are sort of like trying to push the crate by slapping it with your arms with as much arm speed as possible, or sprinting at the crate from 50' away trying to get as much body velocity as possible and slamming into the crate.

this fundamental misunderstanding is why people fail at things like the right pec drill. when you watch someone struggling with that drill they are basically trying to spin as fast as possible... when the correct focus is trying to launch the disc from a point beyond your body.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby djext1 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:16 am

Blake_T wrote:this fundamental misunderstanding is why people fail at things like the right pec drill. when you watch someone struggling with that drill they are basically trying to spin as fast as possible... when the correct focus is trying to launch the disc from a point beyond your body.


This is so true. Last year I was trying my hardest to break the 300 barrier and nothing seemed to work. The pec drills didn't seem to do much, working and reworking my form didn't do anything....I was just stuck.

Then, first time out this spring, I changed one thing in my run up and teepad routine (nothing important to the story or form really), and it just happened. I was throwing with snap. Wasn't throwing hard, but it had snap without all the brute 'speed & power'. Once I realized what it was I had just done, then EVERY thing I had read here pretty much started to make sense and began clicking: the pec drills, working from the hit backwards, slingshotting the disc, armspeed vs snap, etc.

My problem up until that moment had been trying to pull my arm as fast as possible across my chest. I had good form, decent speed, just no snap. I was trying to 'throw' the disc with my arm, instead of letting the disc 'whip' out of my hand. My focus had been on getting the disc across and out as fast as possible, instead of focusing on getting myself into the proper position and rip to let the disc whip out or snap out of my hand.

It was pretty cool to have everything start making sense. I'm far from bombing them out there, but at least I now understand better what it is I need to do, and adjustments to my form now mean something.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby HuntingtonHyzer » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:03 am

Im working on getting a video of my form posted but for now....

About a month ago I was getting my Leo's and Sidewinder about 290 and rocs about 250. I noticed in masterbeato's video that he said to pushoff/kick with your left leg (rhbh). Started working on this and now I am throwing my roc's 300-310 golf d. Here is the issue though...my leo's and sidewinder are only going 320. I feel like I am pulling tight...Could it be im pulling too early?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:43 pm

I was trying to 'throw' the disc with my arm, instead of letting the disc 'whip' out of my hand. My focus had been on getting the disc across and out as fast as possible, instead of focusing on getting myself into the proper position and rip to let the disc whip out or snap out of my hand.


glad to hear things are clicking a bit. as your start building your power up you can actually reach the last plateau throwing in the very relaxed manner you are talking about now. the next stage (which i wouldn't work on until you are very comfortable with allowing the elbow and wrist to release) is adding power after you feel the disc starting to whip its way out from the point of contact.


Here is the issue though...my leo's and sidewinder are only going 320. I feel like I am pulling tight...Could it be im pulling too early?


it could be a variety of things. like, drivers are more nose angle sensitive than midrange. a roc with a flat throw or small amount of nose down (like 1 degree) will still fly quite well. a driver is not as forgiving as that and will require more nose down to get proportional distance.

another factor is that, thrown with sufficient snap, you can strong arm a roc with snap > 300'. the same cannot be said for drivers.

yet another factor is that the roc is a very stable disc, allowing you to lay on it hard without fear of turning it over (and it's even resistant to some OAT). the leopard and sidewinder are both understable discs and if you lay on them to the same degree, they will end up turning very far off to the right. it would be easier to compare it with slightly more stable discs.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:17 pm

Ok. So I'm with a bunch of others here. I started over, from the ground up as I've been off for 2 years now. I have gotten to the point where I can (when I get it right) throw a surge ss ~375' with no run up. Just curious, would you say this is snap, or am I still strong arming it?

I felt like I'm getting the disc closer to my chest, weight forward, and using my arm to accel only after the hips open perpendicular to the direction of throw. (All things I was doing wrong before.) I have read that you say to keep your wrist straight (relative to the forearm), but in watching David Wiggins and a few others, it looks like they're curling their wrist around the disc, as if "rolling their arm" around the disc if that makes sense.

I just don't seem to "understand" the concept of timing. I think it's more about the "elbow stop" that I'm not getting. I've heard it described as trying to elbow someone as hard and as fast as one can (Shawn Sinclair). Is this right? Is this what we're supposed to be doing once the disc is in the power zone?

I wish you'd come up to KY and give some pointers. I have a video up and was hoping you'd comment, but I'm still waiting... :lol: Please? :D

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:38 pm

I have gotten to the point where I can (when I get it right) throw a surge ss ~375' with no run up. Just curious, would you say this is snap, or am I still strong arming it?


you definitely are no longer strong arming it. you are getting some snap at this range. i can't say for certain whether or not it's huge snap without knowing what kind of velocity you are generating.

I have read that you say to keep your wrist straight (relative to the forearm), but in watching David Wiggins and a few others, it looks like they're curling their wrist around the disc, as if "rolling their arm" around the disc if that makes sense.


wrist "neutral" at the beginning. if you keep the disc tight the entire time the wrist will naturally curl around the disc. you don't have to force it to curl, and in fact, it's somewhat counter-productive if you tightly curl it. the curl is incidental and based upon positions.

I just don't seem to "understand" the concept of timing. I think it's more about the "elbow stop" that I'm not getting. I've heard it described as trying to elbow someone as hard and as fast as one can (Shawn Sinclair). Is this right? Is this what we're supposed to be doing once the disc is in the power zone?


read my point of contact vs. the drive posts. it's not that forcibly stop the elbow, but too many people exert force when they shouldn't. knowing when/how to exert force is important.

the elbow stops moving forwards when you reach the point of contact (aka the start of the power zone). this triggers the release of the forearm. the forearm stops moving forwards at "the drive". this triggers the release of the wrist.

it's all part of a flow. you can't really truly isolate any one of them. the best you can do is to remove everything that is unnecessary (aka the right pec drill).

i will say that the first torso rotation should only be 90 degrees. from 180 to 90. that is how you reach the point of contact.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:40 pm

I have a video up and was hoping you'd comment, but I'm still waiting... :lol: Please? :D


i took a quick look at it and masterbeato gave some useful info.

i know you've reached a few newer things since then, but three things stood out in the video.
1. your footwork is totally passive.
2. your torso rotates at a constant speed for the entire 180 degree rotation without a pause.
3. you are not obtaining visual contact with your target line, which doesn't allow you to actually deliver force on said target line. basically, by the time your head faces forward, it's too late.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:25 am

Blake_T wrote:
I have a video up and was hoping you'd comment, but I'm still waiting... :lol: Please? :D


i took a quick look at it and masterbeato gave some useful info.

i know you've reached a few newer things since then, but three things stood out in the video.
1. your footwork is totally passive.
2. your torso rotates at a constant speed for the entire 180 degree rotation without a pause.
3. you are not obtaining visual contact with your target line, which doesn't allow you to actually deliver force on said target line. basically, by the time your head faces forward, it's too late.


1) How would you suggest getting my footwork more involved? I'm not sure I understand how, outside of kicking forward with the back foot.

2) Is the "pause" the time between your hips pulling your arm and the disc to the right pec position and when your arm takes up the pull? If so, I've started to do that somewhat. The video was before I realized I needed to do this.

3) I use my body position and not sight lines to aim. Always have. Here if you look closely, I aim with my hips at the target (or where I want the disc to fly) vs using sight lines. I guess that's a bad thing, huh? Do you have a write-up on how to do this? Or maybe a suggestion?

Ok, I'm getting an error message when I try to search...could you give a link to the "point of contact vs the drive" thread? I couldn't find it by looking through the posts...

Thanks so much for doing some analysis!

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:08 pm

1. if you are practicing stationary throws, you are likely getting your hips involved. in your videos you were not. your torso and hips had synchronized rotation. that is bad.

2. no, your understanding is way off here. read that thread. it's like the 7th thread down.

3. while directions can be dictated by body positions, power really isn't. in order to launch the disc down a target line you need to have visual contact with your target line. suggestion: make visual contact with your target line before you try applying any type of power to it.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:30 pm

Blake_T wrote:1. if you are practicing stationary throws, you are likely getting your hips involved. in your videos you were not. your torso and hips had synchronized rotation. that is bad.

2. no, your understanding is way off here. read that thread. it's like the 7th thread down.

3. while directions can be dictated by body positions, power really isn't. in order to launch the disc down a target line you need to have visual contact with your target line. suggestion: make visual contact with your target line before you try applying any type of power to it.


Thanks, Blake. On 1), it's hips, then shoulders, then arm, right?

I'll search for that thread. Thanks again!
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