Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:36 pm

Thanks, Blake. On 1), it's hips, then shoulders, then arm, right?


hips, shoulder, arm, shoulder/hip.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:00 pm

Well, so I have been practicing what I read today about getting hips into the timing and timing itself. I "think" I found something and wanted to see if it makes sense.

I was just going through the motions without a disc and found that when I rotated the hips, then shoulders, then arm, my hand felt like it was going very, very fast. In fact, my hand was cutting through the air making a sound almost like a golf club does when swung properly. (Not that fast, but you get the sound idea.)

I was loose throughout the swing. When I tightened up, it was *noticably* slower. Does this sound right? If you do a "practice swing," does the same thing happen for you or anyone?

Daniel
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby jubuttib » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:10 pm

Yeah, definitely. Without a disc I can feel the chop better and accelerating late (and hard) is pretty straightforward. With a disc in my hand I can't get the same feeling at all though...
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:25 pm

jubuttib wrote:Yeah, definitely. Without a disc I can feel the chop better and accelerating late (and hard) is pretty straightforward. With a disc in my hand I can't get the same feeling at all though...


You know, I can pop the living snot out of a towel ala Feldberg, but I have had the hardest time trying to get the same action on a disc. Wierd.

Daniel
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:54 pm

Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:00 pm

drledford93 wrote:Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.


If you hold a disc in the power grip with your finger tips (not pads) pressed against the inside of the rim and you push the disc down into your palm and rest your thumb over on the top edge of the disc near where your index finger is underneath you'll find you create a pretty good "hook" effect with your fingers with nary any grip at all. Basically just point your fingertips toward your palm, then stick a disc rim under them.

When you add some pressure to it, it's really a tight grip. It's the grip I use for throws where I want 100% of my possible distance (not 100% effort though). I use a Climo/hybrid birdie grip for anything under that.

Stay loose and controlled - what you said about the power build up is correct. You just need to be able to maintain your focus so that you:

a) Get the disc into the power zone (instead of letting it drift away from your chest)
b) Pull late instead of pulling from the back and making sure you accelerate through the hit.
c) Grip tightly at the end to hold the disc as long as you can.

Starting slowly and building speed will help you do more of those until it's all natural.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:39 pm

Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.


most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:44 am

Blake_T wrote:most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.


I have taken your advice and gone back to discs with rims of 1.9cm or less (predator, TB, leopard, etc). I can definitely feel a difference, even though my fingers are very long and felt more "comfortable" in my hands.

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:44 am

black udder wrote:If you hold a disc in the power grip with your finger tips (not pads) pressed against the inside of the rim and you push the disc down into your palm and rest your thumb over on the top edge of the disc near where your index finger is underneath you'll find you create a pretty good "hook" effect with your fingers with nary any grip at all. Basically just point your fingertips toward your palm, then stick a disc rim under them.


This is the grip I started using, just messing around. When I did, the discs came out of my hand so incredibly fast and with much more force, I was shocked. I also was shocked at how much I was grip locking and throwing the discs waaaaaay to the right. I take this as my "mis-timing"? I guess this is what Blake was talking about in the above post...

I think I'm starting to get this, little by little. Watching David Wiggins Jr really made something click. Between him and a friend of mine who could throw 500'+, I realized something. It's that when you watch them, their throwing arm is almost "pulled out of socket" from the speed of the shoulders and torso spinning before they start the arm pull. Once I worked on the hip-shoulder-arm progression, I can feel this same thing and think I might be on the verge of a breakthrough. I haven't been able to get out to the field and practice, but I will try it today. I'm excited to try it...


Daniel
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:21 am

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?


this is one of those things that you will grasp more if you figure out which answer makes sense on your own rather than having me spell it out for you.

180 = chest facing away from target
90 = shoulder pointing at target
0 = chest facing toward target

your rotation goes from 180 to 0 at a constant speed.

in order to facilitate the point of contact and the rip, your rotation needs to have a pause (or at least a slow-down). e.g. 180 to 90 (or 80, etc.), pause, then 90 to 0. it's probably more of a slow down than a pause, but the concept is the same.

if you really watch the shoulder rotation of big throwers you'll see their rotation speed goes fast slow fast.

I also was shocked at how much I was grip locking and throwing the discs waaaaaay to the right. I take this as my "mis-timing"?


correct.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:23 am

drledford93 wrote:
Blake_T wrote:most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.


I have taken your advice and gone back to discs with rims of 1.9cm or less (predator, TB, leopard, etc). I can definitely feel a difference, even though my fingers are very long and felt more "comfortable" in my hands.

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?



You stand chest facing 90 degrees from your target. You turn another 90 and your back is to your target. You then pivot back to your chest 90 degrees from target. You want your elbow to unchop at that point (meaning all your momentum uncorking at the right pec position (and that being your chest is 90 degrees from the target)). Once your lower arm starts moving, it's a matter of timing and feeling your motion, catching up to it and pulling harder and extending your wrist at just the right time so you add to your momentum built from the hip and shoulder pivot from 180 degrees to 90 degrees.

Bottom line is you start your pull when your chest is 90 degrees from the target, not when it's past or facing the target. You're grip locking because you've turn your shoulders past 90 degrees from the target and you're hitting it late.

Watch the slow mo drives on the site and on youtube and watch when the elbow starts to open up. You'll see that their chest is 90 degrees from the target. The movement is so fast and fluid though, it looks like they're chest facing the target when they pull.

edit - okay I just said the same thing as Blake in more words. I'll leave it in case anything makes sense.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:42 am

another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby USAnarchy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 am

Blake,

Let me see if i understand you correctly.

Basically, you are standing on the same side as the person's throwing arm, but lets say one step further back.

You have one hand where their elbow will hit, and then could have your opposite hand where their hand should hit.

Then your basically having them do the right pec drill.

They do a little hip rotation as if reaching back and then hit their elbow on your hand then extend the forearm so that their hand hits your other hand.

do i have this right? kind of like breaking down a pimp slap for maximum hoe slapping ability?

I only ask because i use to be a pimp called Silky Smooth, and sometimes i find my self screaming "WHERE'S MY MONEY" after i throw a disc. :wink:
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:10 am

Blake_T wrote:another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.


So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:13 am

drledford93 wrote:
Blake_T wrote:another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.


So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.


yes, chest 90 degrees from target.

Since Blake taught Dan, it's possible it's a product of Blake's
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