Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:42 am

black udder wrote:
drledford93 wrote:
Blake_T wrote:another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.


So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.


yes, chest 90 degrees from target.

Since Blake taught Dan, it's possible it's a product of Blake's

Gotcha.

I think one thing I'm doing is stopping my chest rotation at 90 deg. I was out at the field this am for a little bit and I think my chest is not coming fully around and thus my arm is not getting the full "whip effect." I seem to be stopping my arm, as it's not pulling my torso around (as I've heard over the years it should).

I was getting my discs out to 350 or so today with no run up. (TB, Champ Katanas, Leopards, Buzzzes, Comets. Comet was consistently the longest disc.) Still way short and no snap.

BTW, if you couldn't tell, I am one that really needs a teacher to learn. I don't learn well by self-study. I really wish I had a buddy or someone that could watch and tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong. So, obviously, I DO need it spelled out. :lol:

Ok, so watching more videos of Dan and others, it seems they're getting WAY more elbow into their throws than I am. That's got to be part of it. Timing is a huge thing as well. As I said above, I'm getting my Buzzzes and comets out to 350' consistently flat and no OAT. Drivers were not very high, maybe 20', as were the mids. Thoughts on this?

I'm really sorry for being such a tough nut to crack. I don't have much else going on and I REALLY want to figure this out...gettin' kinda frustrated...
My putter doinks harder than yours!

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby USAnarchy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:36 pm

you could always practice the drill that Blake talks about by using a padded mat or mattress and standing it up against the wall.

if you are a Caged Fighter, i might recommend a brico block wall or a heavy gauge steel door.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:49 pm

They do a little hip rotation as if reaching back and then hit their elbow on your hand then extend the forearm so that their hand hits your other hand.


correct. i tend to use the same hand and shift it because the forearm extension should take them through the same line as where their elbow hit. however, it should be the back of the hand that is the second hit.

if you really want to show someone how f'd up their throw is, have them try it with a full reachback at full speed and watch how bad their 2nd hit (the hand hit) is.

I think one thing I'm doing is stopping my chest rotation at 90 deg. I was out at the field this am for a little bit and I think my chest is not coming fully around and thus my arm is not getting the full "whip effect." I seem to be stopping my arm, as it's not pulling my torso around (as I've heard over the years it should).


in your videos you weren't stopping your chest at all, it was during a constant speed rotation from 180 to 0. the whip effect is VERY minor compared to snap. if you can conserve the momentum of your whip and still snap it, that is good, however, most people can't snap it if they try to whip it.

what you don't seem to understand is that the POWER OF THE THROW HAPPENS AS THE DISC PASSES YOUR BODY AND BEYOND. the body actually does very little work compared to work that snap does.

So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.


one, the right pec and elbow drills are mine and i taught them to dan :P

the purpose of that drill is to teach people how to "hit it" and then integrate more and more motion while they are still hitting it. e.g. do the double hit using 0 torso rotation. do the double hit using 45 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation + a reach back, and so on.

the biggest thing you can learn from this is if you spin your torso from 180 to 0 you won't deliver a forceful hit with your elbow nor your hand.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:55 pm

Blake_T wrote:in your videos you weren't stopping your chest at all, it was during a constant speed rotation from 180 to 0. the whip effect is VERY minor compared to snap. if you can conserve the momentum of your whip and still snap it, that is good, however, most people can't snap it if they try to whip it.

what you don't seem to understand is that the POWER OF THE THROW HAPPENS AS THE DISC PASSES YOUR BODY AND BEYOND. the body actually does very little work compared to work that snap does.

one, the right pec and elbow drills are mine and i taught them to dan :P

the purpose of that drill is to teach people how to "hit it" and then integrate more and more motion while they are still hitting it. e.g. do the double hit using 0 torso rotation. do the double hit using 45 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation + a reach back, and so on.

the biggest thing you can learn from this is if you spin your torso from 180 to 0 you won't deliver a forceful hit with your elbow nor your hand.


I do understand (in my mind) that the energy is imparted in the last part of the throw. I've got that from reading a lot of your postings. I'm trying to focus on that part of the throw (only accel my arm then, not before) but I'm just not doing something. I feel I'm making some progress and I can see exactly what others are doing to get big D (500'+), but I just can't get my body to do the same. (This is unusual, as I've found that I could generally control my body well.)

Sorry about thinking it was Dan's. Ooops. :oops:

So, I think you are absolutely right about my hips. It's odd that I'm keeping the disc really close to my chest, trying not to accel with my arm until the right pec, but I still don't seem to have a "hip pause" before the hit. As I said, I'm going to post a video or two tonight that shows what I'm doing during a standstill throw.

Today, I was getting about 350' with my surge ss. Not the best, I know. This is flat, straight throw with no turn.

Thanks for your help and patience. I know I must be frustrating the living you know what out of you right now. I'm just glad you're here to help.

EDIT: Ok, so I filmed my drives and they look almost identical to the previous drives I posted. WTF? I don't get it. I feel really down and that I'll just be stuck at this driving distance. Argh.

Two vids I just took:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D32F5kXl7Dg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZu1uTpRIY

Enjoy for those sick enough...
My putter doinks harder than yours!

Z Pred~E*Boss~E*TB~Roadrunner~Fuse~Buzzz~Comet~Aviar
Frank Delicious wrote:I try to psyche people out on my card. I usually do this by getting nude around the 4th hole.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:11 pm

well, you are actually hitting a bit more in those videos than the previous ones. you have a bit of acceleration in the new videos that wasn't there in the old ones.

you still aren't exploding on it though, and the same items that i wrote about before still apply, especially obtaining visual contact as your force is far from being focused.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:40 pm

Blake_T wrote:especially obtaining visual contact as your force is far from being focused.


So, is this just keeping your eyes on the point you want to throw at for as long as possible, only letting your eyes off target because of the reachback (can't help it)? Is that what you're referring to?

Also, after looking at it frame by frame, I noticed at or just past the right pec, the disc was almost 10" out from my chest. Need to work on that. That could be some right there.
My putter doinks harder than yours!

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Frank Delicious wrote:I try to psyche people out on my card. I usually do this by getting nude around the 4th hole.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby masterbeato » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:46 pm

i feel bad every time someone thinks those drills are mine, i just made the video.

it may be easier to learn the timing if you start from a shorter reach back.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:25 pm

So, is this just keeping your eyes on the point you want to throw at for as long as possible, only letting your eyes off target because of the reachback (can't help it)? Is that what you're referring to?


no.

you can let your eyes off the target during the reach back but once you start your forward motion you should be making visual contact early so that you can focus your power at the target.

a martial artist making a strike vs. a martial artist striking in attempt to break a brick.
the latter will be able to deliver more force to break said brick.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:34 pm

masterbeato wrote:i feel bad every time someone thinks those drills are mine, i just made the video.

it may be easier to learn the timing if you start from a shorter reach back.


You might put something on the video acknowledging Blake's work. That might help clear up things.

I tried the right pec drill and felt a little, but not much. How would a shorter reach back help improve timing problems?

I think that one of the things someone else pointed out was that my elbow wasn't stopping in the follow through. I guess that would limit the power generation. That make sense?
Last edited by patdabunny on Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My putter doinks harder than yours!

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Frank Delicious wrote:I try to psyche people out on my card. I usually do this by getting nude around the 4th hole.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby patdabunny » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Blake_T wrote:
So, is this just keeping your eyes on the point you want to throw at for as long as possible, only letting your eyes off target because of the reachback (can't help it)? Is that what you're referring to?


no.

you can let your eyes off the target during the reach back but once you start your forward motion you should be making visual contact early so that you can focus your power at the target.

a martial artist making a strike vs. a martial artist striking in attempt to break a brick.
the latter will be able to deliver more force to break said brick.


This makes sense. I'll incorporate this into my throws. Thanks! As you can tell, I can use any and all help I can get!

Man, I wish I could play a round with you guys. That would help soooooooo much.
My putter doinks harder than yours!

Z Pred~E*Boss~E*TB~Roadrunner~Fuse~Buzzz~Comet~Aviar
Frank Delicious wrote:I try to psyche people out on my card. I usually do this by getting nude around the 4th hole.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:38 pm

a shorter reach back would help because you wouldn't have to time a long reach back into the right pec. sort of keep the disc around the right pec area and just turn your shoulders. Then it's just a matter of pulling at the right time. The disc is already where it needs to be (or close to it).

do you gain any distance with an x-step? I would think if you're throwing 350' from a stand still, you could get something out around 400' area with an x-step. With wind/elevation, you could be as far as 450'-500'... Most of the long holes I see have some elevation. just sayin' I don't think you're as far off as you think.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby masterbeato » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:16 pm

drledford93 wrote:
masterbeato wrote:i feel bad every time someone thinks those drills are mine, i just made the video.

it may be easier to learn the timing if you start from a shorter reach back.


I tried the right pec drill and felt a little, but not much. How would a shorter reach back help improve timing problems?


less movement - you can accelerate a lot earlier rather than waiting longer for the arm to come into the power zone. seems to help since when people are learning this they tend to accelerate too early and decelerate through the power zone. this way you can accelerate earlier and find more success in the timing since you will already be close to the power zone.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby terazen » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:07 pm

Blake_T wrote:something i will reiterate, focus more upon how to unleash the disc and less about body positions. timing dominates body positions unless said positions are so f'd up that they block timing.

something to keep in mind:
when people's timing goes wacky i ask them what their goal is. most say arm speed, which if you are trying to max out arm speed at some point, your timing will be wacky. the goal of the throw is to launch the disc. how do you get to the spots to launch the disc? TRY to launch the disc. don't try to just get the disc "moving fast" in your hand.


When I read this about the goal to launch a disc it made me think of Nolan Ryan's book when he said that if someone wants to throw fastballs faster then they should practice a lot throwing fastballs. Both of yall are right on. I'm one of those people who was trying to get my arm moving fast. I threw about 30-40 throws today thinking about getting the disc to launch out of my hand and dang if I didn't set a new pr by 25'! I think Brad said this in his snap video but for whatever reason it didn't click.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JR » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:47 am

Try to get your elbow closer to the target before straightening the forearm. Also you'll pivot faster and less obstructed and tense if you move your right leg right by about 8-9" for flat releases. You are a bit annied. Although that in itself generates a little more power from the upper body rotation so the difference ain't gonna be great likely. But it's safer for the body.

drledford93 wrote:
Blake_T wrote:in your videos you weren't stopping your chest at all, it was during a constant speed rotation from 180 to 0. the whip effect is VERY minor compared to snap. if you can conserve the momentum of your whip and still snap it, that is good, however, most people can't snap it if they try to whip it.

what you don't seem to understand is that the POWER OF THE THROW HAPPENS AS THE DISC PASSES YOUR BODY AND BEYOND. the body actually does very little work compared to work that snap does.

one, the right pec and elbow drills are mine and i taught them to dan :P

the purpose of that drill is to teach people how to "hit it" and then integrate more and more motion while they are still hitting it. e.g. do the double hit using 0 torso rotation. do the double hit using 45 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation + a reach back, and so on.

the biggest thing you can learn from this is if you spin your torso from 180 to 0 you won't deliver a forceful hit with your elbow nor your hand.


I do understand (in my mind) that the energy is imparted in the last part of the throw. I've got that from reading a lot of your postings. I'm trying to focus on that part of the throw (only accel my arm then, not before) but I'm just not doing something. I feel I'm making some progress and I can see exactly what others are doing to get big D (500'+), but I just can't get my body to do the same. (This is unusual, as I've found that I could generally control my body well.)

Sorry about thinking it was Dan's. Ooops. :oops:

So, I think you are absolutely right about my hips. It's odd that I'm keeping the disc really close to my chest, trying not to accel with my arm until the right pec, but I still don't seem to have a "hip pause" before the hit. As I said, I'm going to post a video or two tonight that shows what I'm doing during a standstill throw.

Today, I was getting about 350' with my surge ss. Not the best, I know. This is flat, straight throw with no turn.

Thanks for your help and patience. I know I must be frustrating the living you know what out of you right now. I'm just glad you're here to help.

EDIT: Ok, so I filmed my drives and they look almost identical to the previous drives I posted. WTF? I don't get it. I feel really down and that I'll just be stuck at this driving distance. Argh.

Two vids I just took:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D32F5kXl7Dg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZu1uTpRIY

Enjoy for those sick enough...
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:03 am

For some reason it's all starting to remind me of proper cornering techniques on a race car. You start out on the outside of the corner, slowly go into the inside of the corner, as tight as you can get and only from there you blast out again as hard as you can while aiming for the outside of the corner exit and the following straight. It's not about getting through the corner in the fastest possible time, it's about setting yourself up to go as fast as possible on the following straight, getting to the next corner as fast as you can. If you try to rush the corner entry you're just going to mess up your lines, have to slow down too much for the apex and then you're pretty much stuck, your exit speed (and anything you could have gained from it) is gone. Only when you can see the exit and you know the car can handle it do you accelerate out of the corner.

Like Jackie Stewart says, the exit of a corner is far more important than the entry of a corner. You never step on the pedal before you know you never have to lift your foot off from it.

Funny how physics works like that, no matter what your sport is...
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