What's it like to throw with the nose down?

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What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby Redisculous » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:35 pm

I'd like to avoid the typical "get your weight forward" "pull close to your body" responses in this thread, I'd like responses that go into detal about why I need to get my weight forward etc..

Do you keep the disc level with your forearm, or do you bend the wrist even further down to create nose-down? Every time I try this it comes out of my hand anny.

If the disc is only supposed to be level with your forearm, does this mean that you are lifting the disc upward, like when you keep your putt flat, maintaining the plane of the disc to the ground, even though you are clearly throwing in an arc?

Where is the apex of the throw, and does the disc glide "downhill" from the apex at an angle, or does it just sort of lose altitude as it runs out of steam like a putter?

Most of all, what does it feel like? I know I could add 50' or more to my drives if I could air them out and not stall them out.

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies to this, sorry for the questions of epic-newbie porportion.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby Lithicon » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:10 am

Wrist Down
The wrist down position refers to the angle of the wrist that will preserve correct disc orientation in conjunction with gripping the disc in the seam of the hand. If you hold your forearm out parallel to the ground with your fingers extended as if you were shaking hands, tilt your hand downwards ~30-45 degrees downwards. Placing a disc in the hand from this position should yield the correct disc orientation. You may need to adjust the angle of tilt to make everything line up.
Image
Correct
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Incorrect

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... ipit.shtml
This was taken from Blake's article on the main site.

That's what it should LOOK like. If the disc is coming out Anny, it probably means you're rolling your wrist down, instead of pushing your wrist down. There is a huge difference. Wrist roll Vs Wrist down. As far as what it should feel like. Well, it's smooth to me, it will take repetition, and you forcing yourself to do it for a while. Then you'll start doing it all the time.

Where is the apex of the throw, and does the disc glide "downhill" from the apex at an angle, or does it just sort of lose altitude as it runs out of steam like a putter?

The Apex of the throw is it's highest point, usually depends on your power. Unless you're specific line shaping. If you're going for max distance then the height of the Apex depends on how much power your have, and how much nose down you can accomplish.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16326
This illustrates throwing through the Apex. As far as does it go down hill, or does it just lose height as it runs out of steam, well I can't answer that. Seems like a little of both perhaps?
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby Blake_T » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:38 am

if it comes out anny you are shifting the plane to anhyzer, most likely caused by your elbow not stopping and/or having your elbow above the disc while attempting a flat throw.

wrist extension and sound grip fundamentals are really what give nose down. the other major fundamentals don't GIVE nose down, but lacking them force nose up. make sense?

ideal fundamentals that will help get the nose down:

-disc parallel to forearm. what this really does is line up the hinge of the wrist joint with the plane of the elbow joint = the uncoiling of the elbow and uncoiling of the wrist provide force parallel to the disc plane = greatest potential power that is on axis.

-keeping the disc close during the pull = allows for the wrist to extend with the disc moving in the forwards direction. if the disc is wide during the pull the wrist will not extend unless it is a grip lock. nose down can be achieved here but only with anhyzers or grip locks.

-getting weight forward = allows your shoulders/arm to continue rotating on plane. weight back jams the pivot and forces the wrist to roll under late in the power zone if you try to keep your shoulders/arm on plane = nose up. this can be compensated for by breaking the shoulder plane in an OAT over motion but adds a SIGNIFICANT amount of OAT. as always, jamming the pivot puts tremendous strain on the ACL/MCL/LCL and patellar tendon if you attempt a complete follow through (or risk of shoulder damage if you break the lower body follow through off).

it is possible in extreme cases to "power through" and force the nose down even without having the above fundamentals. this requires being able to generate 60+mph worth of disc velocity without having the above fundamentals happening. i've maybe come across 2 people ever who could do this out of everyone i've seen throw.

to summarize: certain positions facilitate the required motion for nose down (about 1" of wrist extension at the right time). failing to achieve those positions will block that from happening unless you have freakish natural ability.

Where is the apex of the throw, and does the disc glide "downhill" from the apex at an angle, or does it just sort of lose altitude as it runs out of steam like a putter?


this is completely dependent upon your throwing velocity, nose down, and the disc selection. you are best off working with incredibly slow plastic if you want to see what is supposed to happen.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby Redisculous » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:06 am

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, thank you for putting all of that into words. I've had a lot more success with stopping the elbow in practice (the towel is snapping much more frequently).

Lithicon: Thanks for pointing me back to that article it has been a while since I read it.

I think I have been trying to force my wrist down at the last moment instead of maintaining it through the throw = wrist roll.

Thanks guys. It's snowing right now, but I'm going to take my shovel out to the local pitch n putt in the morning and clear off the tees (again) so I can practice outside.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby masterbeato » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:16 pm

Redisculous wrote:go into detal about why I need to get my weight forward


so you can throw nose down. epic sick burn! yeah i know that was a useless comment. lol sry
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby JHern » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:29 am

As Blake often says, maybe try to pull through on a lower line. I never really understood this until some dude on the course was trying to teach new players a strange grip: to tuck the parting line of the disc into the line of their palms just above the top finger hinge knuckles. Then he was teaching them to throw from the waist level. Of course, you need to pull really low with that grip in order to avoid nose down. Anyways, I screwed around with that a little bit, and then I went back and put the disc into the under-thumb crease. Then I was getting way nose down. Maybe try that.

For the disc to penetrate forward after apex, the nose has to be down enough that the disc is leaning forward at the apex. Otherwise it will always stall. No matter what.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby NoLifeLeft » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:32 pm

Blake_T wrote:
Where is the apex of the throw, and does the disc glide "downhill" from the apex at an angle, or does it just sort of lose altitude as it runs out of steam like a putter?


this is completely dependent upon your throwing velocity, nose down, and the disc selection. you are best off working with incredibly slow plastic if you want to see what is supposed to happen.


I was finally able to obviously see myself getting the nose down while practicing with my Wizards. The throws weren't long but you could see what was happening and it looked right. Now hopefully I can get it consistently and transition it to my drivers.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby MrScoopa » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:19 pm

Get someone to watch from a few hundred feet away at the side.

As I was leaving the practice field today another guy showed up and started throwing. I always enjoy watching others throw. To my surprise he throws about my D. And, like my throws some were 50 or so feet longer than the rest. The ones that were longer were nose down and the shorter were nose up stalls. You could easily see the difference in nose angles from that viewpoint.

Neat to watch because on the longer throws I was like "DAMN that was bad-ass". Then I noticed it was the same D I get with my leopard on a good rip 8)

Now, I have a question. Once he got the nose down going it seemed to "stick" and he had it for the rest of the throws. Before every throw he was cocking and twisting his wrist so the disc was almost pointing toward the ground. Then he'd go into the throw and seemed to hold that position. What was he trying to do? Does that help with nose down or add some snap? I would've ran over and asked but I hate being interrupted when I'm practicing, so I wanted to give him the same courtesy.
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby emiller3 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:32 pm

Read Lithicon's post above, I'm sure that's what he was doing. It helps with nose down, and keeps the disc in the same plane as your forearm (to avoid OAT and wrist roll.)
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Re: What's it like to throw with the nose down?

Postby josser » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:13 pm

Blake_T wrote:if it comes out anny you are shifting the plane to anhyzer, most likely caused by your elbow not stopping and/or having your elbow above the disc while attempting a flat throw.


I'm in the middle of a terrible stretch of everything coming out anny when trying to throw flat and I think I am guilty of both of the above. :(

I added some slo-mo and revived my older video critique thread. Head on over there to out help a poor soul with nose-down issues and anny-itis: this thread
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