Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby emiller3 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:45 am

Blake, you are right that you can see the difference when you just watch big arms. I've been watching lately on YouTube and have been seeing what you're talking about, I just haven't found a way to do it in my own throw at full speed. If only someone could come up with a "secret technique" for helping us focus on this at full speed...
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:07 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
Blake_T wrote:btw, the key to getting something like this to work is to first grasp the concept and then practicing your attempts to actualize the concept in motion.


Start with putting. I have noticed that I am way too elbow dominant. Way more power in not moving the elbow toward the target at all. Just use the wrist (actively).

Also, don't be surprised if your control goes to shit at first.


Believe it or not, my putting is some of the best. I can get great weight transfer and am accurate to about 60-75% at 45'. It's just my timing on my drives is sh*t.

Hey Bradley and Blake--is the time when the disc is *supposed* to leave your hand when your arm is FULLY extended or before? Via physics, I would say at the moment of full extension. Just checkin'.

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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby JR » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
Blake_T wrote:btw, the key to getting something like this to work is to first grasp the concept and then practicing your attempts to actualize the concept in motion.


Start with putting. I have noticed that I am way too elbow dominant. Way more power in not moving the elbow toward the target at all. Just use the wrist (actively).

Also, don't be surprised if your control goes to shit at first.


I'm willing to say that even for those with great muscle power in the wrist for opening with the backhand throw things are gonna suck a long time. For those with little power things are even worse. I'm just halfway from no power due to injury induced immobility and atrophy to any kind of power and the difference in putting is worlds apart.

The harder I accelerate while releasing prior to the wrist straightening the more powerful and accurate I am. If I'm late or late due to tiredness caused sluggish acceleration or the rare pussyfooting the wrist can easily flap to the right and you're done for with a miss to the right. In putting the wrist should do at least as much work as the elbow and the finger spring shouldn't be far behind. To gain any sort of accuracy combined with consistency. This doesn't mean that a great putter with physical ability to match needs to use more than 80 % muscle power with any body part within the circle. If one does accuracy and consistency suffer. Ergo one needs more power generating muscle groups such as weight shift thanks to leg work and bending down and straightening back up at the waist for added loose and accurate repeatable putting power generation

dredford93: Pulling back with the elbow and/or shoulders is easier done at slow speeds like Bradley suggested above. Pulling back the arm with the elbow can be practiced by pointing the arm and wrist straight at the target holding a disc then pulling the whole arm toward the back of the tee by bending the elbow. Or that and yanking the right shoulder back simultaneously. Once you do this you can start with bent wrist then a little earlier in the throw etc. then try to see which timing yields the best results incorporated to which power throws. Full power should be practiced last after you master medium power. Low power should take no time at all to master. And it does no help whatsoever there except prove the point that it works -if only you could translate it to powered drives.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby JR » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:00 pm

emiller3 wrote:Blake, you are right that you can see the difference when you just watch big arms. I've been watching lately on YouTube and have been seeing what you're talking about, I just haven't found a way to do it in my own throw at full speed. If only someone could come up with a "secret technique" for helping us focus on this at full speed...


Three years after starting to practice I can't say for sure if I'm there yet. My body control sucks so I hope others learn faster.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby MR. WICK » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:03 pm

Wow, this is good stuff.......It makes me :twisted: tho. I only hit half of it.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:16 pm

JR wrote:dredford93: Pulling back with the elbow and/or shoulders is easier done at slow speeds like Bradley suggested above. Pulling back the arm with the elbow can be practiced by pointing the arm and wrist straight at the target holding a disc then pulling the whole arm toward the back of the tee by bending the elbow. Or that and yanking the right shoulder back simultaneously. Once you do this you can start with bent wrist then a little earlier in the throw etc. then try to see which timing yields the best results incorporated to which power throws. Full power should be practiced last after you master medium power. Low power should take no time at all to master. And it does no help whatsoever there except prove the point that it works -if only you could translate it to powered drives.


I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Let me see if I understand: Stand with your right arm pointing at the target. Then bend the arm at the elbow and throw? Like the Right Pec Drill?

I can do this (RPD) with a great result...lots of "pop" and it feels good and fast coming out of the hand. It's when I start to get my shoulders into it that I get into trouble. Blake spotted it a while ago that my hips and shoulders were moving at the same rate, causing my timing to be "waaaaaay off." This is exhibited by a lot of grip locks in practice (none in rounds before this). I'm trying to get with a friend to watch my shoulders to see if he has anything to say. He's no bomber, but he's intelligent and understands things. May help.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:40 pm

is the time when the disc is *supposed* to leave your hand when your arm is FULLY extended or before? Via physics, I would say at the moment of full extension. Just checkin'.


via physics, yes, the maximum force would be at full extension, however, when it comes to actually performing this physically you are better off having it come out before it's fully extended.

if you threw the pen you'd know this :P

facilitating the wrist extension doesn't require the elbow to be straightened.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby DsmDisc » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:08 pm

. Pulling back the arm with the elbow can be practiced by pointing the arm and wrist straight at the target holding a disc then pulling the whole arm toward the back of the tee by bending the elbow.


this is a fantastic tip. I did this a couple night ago to try to get a feel for the pull through, and immediatly afterwards it started to make sense to me.

I couldn't get used to pulling late and keeping the disc in by my chest, but doing the throw in reverse like this made it click, especially after I involved the weight transfer (forward when the disc is out, rocking back as I pull it towards the back of the tee.)
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:13 pm

Blake_T wrote:if you threw the pen you'd know this :P


Actually, I have a completely splintered sharpie and a scared cat to prove that I did that exercise... :lol:

And what you're trying to say through the pen exercise is that a pen v wrist is equivalent to a disc v elbow, right?
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby Parks » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:26 pm

I'm definitely going to follow this thread, because this is right where I am.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:03 am

Got it.

Threw yesterday.

1. Never straightened elbow until my arm was pointing straight from the target.
2. Focus wrist. All wrist.
3. Lock must feel loose until the very second of rip and then clamp down as hard as I can at the rip.
4. If accelerating the fingers will feel "stretched" into the rip.
5. The rip will be violent and will neither rip your skin off at first.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby Blake_T » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:28 am

Threw yesterday.

1. Never straightened elbow until my arm was pointing straight from the target.
2. Focus wrist. All wrist.
3. Lock must feel loose until the very second of rip and then clamp down as hard as I can at the rip.
4. If accelerating the fingers will feel "stretched" into the rip.
5. The rip will be violent and will neither rip your skin off at first.


good assessment.

#4 is a good description of it and #5 is true as well.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby JR » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:53 am

drledford93 wrote:
JR wrote:dredford93: Pulling back with the elbow and/or shoulders is easier done at slow speeds like Bradley suggested above. Pulling back the arm with the elbow can be practiced by pointing the arm and wrist straight at the target holding a disc then pulling the whole arm toward the back of the tee by bending the elbow. Or that and yanking the right shoulder back simultaneously. Once you do this you can start with bent wrist then a little earlier in the throw etc. then try to see which timing yields the best results incorporated to which power throws. Full power should be practiced last after you master medium power. Low power should take no time at all to master. And it does no help whatsoever there except prove the point that it works -if only you could translate it to powered drives.


I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Let me see if I understand: Stand with your right arm pointing at the target. Then bend the arm at the elbow and throw? Like the Right Pec Drill?

I can do this (RPD) with a great result...lots of "pop" and it feels good and fast coming out of the hand. It's when I start to get my shoulders into it that I get into trouble. Blake spotted it a while ago that my hips and shoulders were moving at the same rate, causing my timing to be "waaaaaay off." This is exhibited by a lot of grip locks in practice (none in rounds before this). I'm trying to get with a friend to watch my shoulders to see if he has anything to say. He's no bomber, but he's intelligent and understands things. May help.


The shoulders should start re turning after the pause at high speed after the rear of the disc passes the right side for RHBH. That way the shoulder will pul the arm back a few inches as the wrist opens.

At first it's easiest to stand chest square to the target and pull the disc backward like you were trying to throw at somebody standing at the back of the tee when you're in the front your back facing the rear of the tee.

Shoulder turn late in the throw will automatically pull the arm sideways first then back. You can add more of the same effect by actively using the arm muscles to pull back the arm from the elbow while the wrist shoots forward and the index finger and thumb clench some time after the disc has started pivoting and cleared the pinky maybe even ring finger and middle finger if you have ninja quick fingers. I can't be sure of when I start to clench because things move so fast and my focus is on performing not monitoring what's going on. So much needs to happen in a couple of hundreths of a second that my brain is to slow to follow things.

On a sidestep I've trained wrists for faster late acceleration forehanding for a year or more and I really see the results from stronger muscles doing the wrist active snap FH. It hasn't carried over to BH yet so I've started wrist muscle power build up to that direction a couple of months ago. No results yet because I haven't really tried active opening again. I need to heal first. Trying these and pinching only after the disc has started to pivot is surely program enough for this summer :-D Rubs hands together...
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby JR » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:56 am

Blake_T wrote:
Threw yesterday.

1. Never straightened elbow until my arm was pointing straight from the target.
2. Focus wrist. All wrist.
3. Lock must feel loose until the very second of rip and then clamp down as hard as I can at the rip.
4. If accelerating the fingers will feel "stretched" into the rip.
5. The rip will be violent and will neither rip your skin off at first.


good assessment.

#4 is a good description of it and #5 is true as well.


Number 4 feels and acts like you lost a finger pulling competition and the opponent pulls your index finger and thumb from pinched to straight. Hence the old saying about the fingers bending like rubber bands. It really feels like for a while your fingers are on loan from Mr. Fantastic. Rubbery bending goodness.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting it half way, Discovering another plateau

Postby black udder » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:08 am

Understanding is one thing - I think this is exactly what I've understood for a little while now, but doing is completely different. Great breakdown of it Blake. some really good information. It needs to be stickied so folks can come back to this as they improve.

I also agree with Brad that practicing the wrist extension with putting is a great start. It'll help a lot on longer putts as well, so it's a 2 birds with 1 stone kind of benefit.

Thanks for posting, Blake!
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