Finishing high vs finishing low

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Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 17, 2010 2:26 pm

Hey all,

Kind of an odd thing that Sunspot and I noticed today in practice is that if I finish my follow through with my hand (and arm, of course) high, no matter the initial angle of release, the disc will GENERALLY not flip. However, if you finish with your hand low, the disc will have the tendency of flipping badly.

Sunspot and I were at a bit of a disagreement over this. He thought that I was releasing them with anhyzer but I was pretty sure that they were coming out flat and then flipping (as if thrown into a strong headwind).

Anyone care to settle this? Is there a "nerded out" reason as to why the above would happen, regardless of release angle?

Thanks!

Daniel
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby black udder » Mon May 17, 2010 4:23 pm

well... if you start low and finish high, it's a pure hyzer and it's hard to flip a disc up from that. It's gotta be super flippy if you're form is solid.

If you start low and finish low, then you're creating OAT and that will make a disc flip.

If you start high and finish high, then it's a level throw, but the odds of hitting it exactly flat are low, so you could impart a little anhyzer and not realize it. The stronger you hit it, the more it would flip.

If you start high and finish low, then you are throwing an anhyzer.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby sunspot » Mon May 17, 2010 4:47 pm

patdabunny, here's the technique repair I was talking about earlier:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... html#right

If you start low and finish low, then you're creating OAT and that will make a disc flip.

If you start high and finish low, then you are throwing an anhyzer.


I think it's one of these two with my guess being the second one.
Last edited by sunspot on Mon May 17, 2010 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 17, 2010 5:57 pm

But I wasn't starting high. That's the problem. I was starting from the exact same position that I was from a hyzer. The only variable in the equation was where my hand ended up--high or low. If low, the PDs/Beasts ALWAYS ended up flipping from a flat/near flat release. If high, only the most severely flippy discs even did the slightest of S curves, even into a headwind. That's why I am so stumped by this.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby Dogma » Mon May 17, 2010 6:42 pm

High follow through -> more nose up?
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby Pat » Mon May 17, 2010 6:48 pm

After a bad weekend, im trying to self-analyze also.

I came to the conclusion that I also was starting high and finishing low. My theory for the disc "flipping" was actually that I was just forcing the nose down a pinch. The disc wasnt so much as flipping but more tracking the right.

Lemme know if someone concurs with this.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby sunspot » Mon May 17, 2010 6:49 pm

What I mean is that the finish is lower than the starting point, breaking the plane of the throw and creating OAT, thus making the disc flip. This is why the disc would behave differently when you finished differently, you were creating a different plane to throw on-- hyzer/anhyzer.

I may be wrong about this and it may be something else, but I definitely think that there is some OAT somewhere at the end of the throw that's causing the disc(s) to behave the way that they do. Honestly, if the anhyzer and hyzer throws were intentional and you were trying to, as they say, throw it "pure", then it wouldn't be much of a problem.

I posted the wrong link in my previous post. I corrected it, and I'll post it again here : http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... html#right

I'm sure Blake or someone with better hands-on training will be able to troubleshot the problem more accurately.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 17, 2010 7:53 pm

sunspot wrote:I may be wrong about this and it may be something else, but I definitely think that there is some OAT somewhere at the end of the throw that's causing the disc(s) to behave the way that they do. Honestly, if the anhyzer and hyzer throws were intentional and you were trying to, as they say, throw it "pure", then it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Here's the end of my knowledge, so I ask: Wouldn't you be able to see OAT as flutter?
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 17, 2010 7:59 pm

I mention all this and wanted a more "nerded out" answer, because I saw Dave F explain this in glittering generalities on the "Fundamentals" dvd. He explained it in terms of hyzering a very understable disc and flipping an overstable one by finishing high and low, respectively.

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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby black udder » Mon May 17, 2010 9:08 pm

patdabunny wrote:
sunspot wrote:I may be wrong about this and it may be something else, but I definitely think that there is some OAT somewhere at the end of the throw that's causing the disc(s) to behave the way that they do. Honestly, if the anhyzer and hyzer throws were intentional and you were trying to, as they say, throw it "pure", then it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Here's the end of my knowledge, so I ask: Wouldn't you be able to see OAT as flutter?


Flutter can be grip related. OAT can be done intentionally as well. There are some advanced shots that use OAT to make the disc do specific things.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby black udder » Mon May 17, 2010 9:14 pm

patdabunny wrote:Hey all,

Kind of an odd thing that Sunspot and I noticed today in practice is that if I finish my follow through with my hand (and arm, of course) high, no matter the initial angle of release, the disc will GENERALLY not flip. However, if you finish with your hand low, the disc will have the tendency of flipping badly.

Sunspot and I were at a bit of a disagreement over this. He thought that I was releasing them with anhyzer but I was pretty sure that they were coming out flat and then flipping (as if thrown into a strong headwind).

Anyone care to settle this? Is there a "nerded out" reason as to why the above would happen, regardless of release angle?

Thanks!

Daniel


Okay - here's some more thoughts.

Keeping in mind here that if you follow through completely, your arm HAS to come down. Just the way your body works.

If you follow through (and we are talking about follow through here, not finish - which is the point after the disc is gone and before your arm starts to slow down) high and stay high and that's where the throw ends, you're probably not putting as much on the disc. Your finish is reduced and so is your follow through. It could be less arm speed, more snap or something similar - depending on the results. When you finish low, you've probably maximized your arms reach/movement and thus, had a full finish and motion, exerting all force you could on the disc. Possibly more snap, more arm speed.

For a normal throw, imagine being face up to the target. Your "power zone" is about 45 degrees to the left of the target and the finish is about 45 degrees past the target. Follow through is past that. Thus, if you are ending up with your arm high, then you haven't really "finished". You've cut your throw off. For some people, maybe this means increase snap, which can help to stabilize a disc. With a shortened throw, maybe your throw is more controlled and thus you stay closer into the body, pull later, etc. However, when you do a full throw with a full follow through, perhaps you're getting a little further away from the body and/or exerting more arm speed than snap (due to timing issues) and that would lead to a disc flipping vs not flipping.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby josser » Mon May 17, 2010 10:44 pm

patdabunny wrote:Kind of an odd thing that Sunspot and I noticed today in practice is that if I finish my follow through with my hand (and arm, of course) high, no matter the initial angle of release, the disc will GENERALLY not flip. However, if you finish with your hand low, the disc will have the tendency of flipping badly.

Sunspot and I were at a bit of a disagreement over this. He thought that I was releasing them with anhyzer but I was pretty sure that they were coming out flat and then flipping (as if thrown into a strong headwind).

Anyone care to settle this? Is there a "nerded out" reason as to why the above would happen, regardless of release angle?


I just noticed the exact same thing today. With low-to-low I was turning over from flat the discs that I was getting a nice flat flight out of when going from low-to-high. Actually in both cases they were starting out with kist the slighest bit of hyzer, but low-to-high would simply flatten out and low-to-low would actually flip and turn.

What BU says about OAT describes exaxtly what I am observing. I wasn't getting any more distance with one over the other, which means that I wasn't hitting low-to-high better than low-to-low like I originally thought. I was simply observing the difference between a slight pure hyzer and and a turned-over OATed slight hyzer. Different flight paths put roughly the same results.

This suddenly makes a ton of sense. Thanks BU and thanks Daniel for bringing this up.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby patdabunny » Tue May 18, 2010 6:26 am

black udder wrote:
patdabunny wrote:
sunspot wrote:I may be wrong about this and it may be something else, but I definitely think that there is some OAT somewhere at the end of the throw that's causing the disc(s) to behave the way that they do. Honestly, if the anhyzer and hyzer throws were intentional and you were trying to, as they say, throw it "pure", then it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Here's the end of my knowledge, so I ask: Wouldn't you be able to see OAT as flutter?


Flutter can be grip related. OAT can be done intentionally as well. There are some advanced shots that use OAT to make the disc do specific things.


My point here was that I didn't see any flutter on the throw (maybe there was, but I didn't see it). Is that still OAT? I thought OAT was shown through flutter...?
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby garublador » Tue May 18, 2010 7:00 am

patdabunny wrote:My point here was that I didn't see any flutter on the throw (maybe there was, but I didn't see it). Is that still OAT? I thought OAT was shown through flutter...?
Flutter always means OAT, but OAT doesn't always produce flutter.
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Re: Finishing high vs finishing low

Postby Lithicon » Tue May 18, 2010 7:53 am

OAT doesn't necessarily have flutter. It could be a slight bit of OAT, but this sounds more like you're getting a good amount of nose down on it which usually can make a disc less stable and track right. But, what B.U. said in his post is exactly what I was thinking as well.
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