As I "get better" I get more confused.

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As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:37 pm

Alrighty... so I've been watching all sorts of videos, reading etc.

I'm currently throwing a 162 Leopard, 169 Roc, 169 Aviar.

My driving has gotten alot better, I throw RHBH exclusively (maybe some thumbers or something here or there) and can get a good 250 using ONLY a standstill drive. Just using rotation, no leg lifting or anything, and if I shift my weight alot (like in the Klimo vid) my discs go sky high.

Anyways, lately... I've been putting anhyzer on the leopard to get that nice s curve to get that little extra distance. At first I was trying to do it, but then it would just do it on it's own. Distances are good. (250ish)

However NOW, the disc is always anhyzer, but often too much anhyzer because the disc will just keep going right and never settle to the left for the low speed fade.

I guess what other information do you guys need to sort this out? I still can't seem to get any sort of x-stepping without this redic anhyzer either (when I occasionally try it) though I have gotten a couple of xstep shots to come out hyzer and roll over immediately into an anhyzer and go through the normal flight paths. I got maybe 20-30 more feet with this.

I'm confused in the sense that I'm really not sure how I should be throwing the discs anymore I guess?
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Sounds like it could be off axis torque but the fact that you're throwing a Leopard makes me think you may just be transitioning to the point where you need to start throwing Hyzer-Flip's all the time to work your Leopard. It's an understable driver and if you've been using it for a while it's probably lost a lot of its stability. Try buying a new one or buyng a Valkyrie or a Teebird perhaps and see if that does anything. If you're really still shooting 250'-300' it could just be an OAT issue so you'll want to work on a smoother cleaner release.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:52 pm

I don't think it's OAT... if I'm not mistaken, OAT is actually gyroscopic precession a concept im all too familiar with from my profession though I suppose it wouldn't ever hurt to work on a cleaner release, but my disc will be clean on the way out (no wobble) and if I hit it just right, the leopard will still go through it's paces, but I'm just having trouble taking some of the anhyzer out of the disc without taking too much out... if that makes sense.

The disc is relatively new, since it's my second one (actually my third) largely because i was yutzing around with different weights. So I've only been throwing this leopard for maybe a month?

I threw a teebird once just to see what was up as that is another really highly recommended disc on here, it was alright, but it's obviously "different" from the leopard in the sense that the teebird is a stable disc, and the leopard is an understable disc.

Im essentially "stuck" at a point in my game. I started originally just throwing for fun and had all sorts of the wrong discs, was using the x-step and wanking things off of trees. Finally stumbled on here, read decided to get different discs and just do a standstill throw. I feel like I'm very good with accuracy now, and decent on power, but I'm just sort of stuck with where to go next?
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:44 pm

EivlEvo wrote:I don't think it's OAT... if I'm not mistaken, OAT is actually gyroscopic precession a concept im all too familiar with from my profession though I suppose it wouldn't ever hurt to work on a cleaner release, but my disc will be clean on the way out (no wobble) and if I hit it just right, the leopard will still go through it's paces, but I'm just having trouble taking some of the anhyzer out of the disc without taking too much out... if that makes sense.

The disc is relatively new, since it's my second one (actually my third) largely because i was yutzing around with different weights. So I've only been throwing this leopard for maybe a month?

I threw a teebird once just to see what was up as that is another really highly recommended disc on here, it was alright, but it's obviously "different" from the leopard in the sense that the teebird is a stable disc, and the leopard is an understable disc.

Im essentially "stuck" at a point in my game. I started originally just throwing for fun and had all sorts of the wrong discs, was using the x-step and wanking things off of trees. Finally stumbled on here, read decided to get different discs and just do a standstill throw. I feel like I'm very good with accuracy now, and decent on power, but I'm just sort of stuck with where to go next?


Getting better is a continual process of modifying what you do. So get used to it-the alternative is stagnating where you are at.

Progress doesn't happen in a straight line of improvement. With each new technique you try to add to your game you will usually get worse before you get better. You just need to stick with it and keep practicing.

You need to incorporate a run-up into your game. It will help your power and timing and accuracy eventually-and take a heck of a lot of strain off your shoulder.

You also need to use discs of different stability. No matter how much your love your Leopard, what are you going to do when throwing into a strong headwind?

The fastest route to improvement is to get some one-on-one coaching from an experienced player. You cannot see yourself so you are guessing what your form actually looks like. Almost no one figures it out on their own. Even if you could it would take you years longer. So join the local leagues, play tournaments and seek a coach.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby mark12b » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:50 pm

Hm, you're trying to get more control over the flight pattern? Besides the hyzer angle, you can also play with the nose angle. IOW if a nose-down hyzer shot flips over and never comes back, then try some nose-up and you should be able to get it to finish left. Or put some intentional OAT i.e. wrist roll-under.

But it sounds like you're ready for a more stable disc such as a gazelle or cyclone. The gazelle won't turn over at first, unless you torque it over, but once it breaks in you'll have a disc that can fly on lots of different lines but with more predicability than that leopard. It's slower and less nose-angle sensitive than the teebird, so it will be easier to get a good flight out of.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby MrScoopa » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:52 pm

Try something a bit more stable like a Gazelle. They are a little over stable at first, but beat into a nice S pattern. If you are wanting to throw flat and straight the T-bird is the way to go. It powers down well. The fade will just come sooner depending on your power. The t-bird is "straight then fade". Most discs are.


I don't think it's OAT... if I'm not mistaken, OAT is actually gyroscopic precession a concept im all too familiar with from my profession though I suppose it wouldn't ever hurt to work on a cleaner release, but my disc will be clean on the way out (no wobble) and if I hit it just right, the leopard will still go through it's paces, but I'm just having trouble taking some of the anhyzer out of the disc without taking too much out... if that makes sense.


Oat is tricky. You can't tell if you've fully beaten unintentional OAT until you watch yourself on video.

The more power and beat the disc is the more hyzer you have to put on it to get a straight flight. If you still want turn then put less hyzer.

For learning to throw anhyzer go grab a Roc or comparable stable mid. What holds the line is spin. Learn to snap the disc and it will hold the line you release it on. You can even toy with it with putters.

So, I wouldn't call it stuck. Either get a more stable disc to lessen the turn or learn how to better manipulate the angle you are throwing on.

Learning from a standstill is a great way to learn the timing of the throw without adding in a lot of noise from the run up.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:12 pm

Hey guys thanks... yeah I didn't mean to come off as complaining or whining, especially in such company. I understand that learning will plateau every now and again.

I've been trying to get out to our league night, but my schedule is pretty whacky and I don't really have set hours. I'm not really attached to my leopard, it's just been a reliable training disc for me.

So if I'm getting this right I have a couple of options.

1. I need to incorporate an x-step. (My biggest issue with this is timing, obviously practice makes perfect I suppose)
2. I should consider another disc that is more stable... gazelle, teebird... etc.
3. I should try throwing the leopard hyzer so that it flips over to anhyzer and goes through the "s-curve"... (sorry I'm a little lost on terminology... I thought the flip from hyzer to anhyzer was a roller... turns out, a roller is a roller lol)

Also... i have a roc, it'll come back over much more reliably than the leopard... but it's harder to get distance with it (seems like it needs quite alot of altitude).

Haha... there is also of course the possibility that I just completely suck. :lol:
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:56 pm

Talk to us more about the Roc. What plastic is it? How far does it fly for you? Does it turnover for you?
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:52 pm

Jeronimo wrote:Talk to us more about the Roc. What plastic is it? How far does it fly for you? Does it turnover for you?


All my discs are dx. I don't generally throw it off the tee since I've been trying to get my techniques down I figured it'd be better for me to throw "consistent discs" as such, I throw the leopard off the tee, the roc for approach, and the aviar for putting.

If I get a chance to get out this weekend again, I'll give it a whirl. Typically though, (before my leopard started going crazy anhyzer) it would probably be a 220' disc for me.

To be clear... turnover is when (for the leopard say) [[[I throw it hyzer, it turns over to anhyzer,]]] and then finishes with its normal low speed fade? (bracketed section is the turn over?).

If so, I've not tried (or noticed) with the roc. If I threw it anhyzer (to s curve it) it would come back level and then finish with its left fade? If that makes sense...

I worked on incorporating an x-step... it would turn into a roller shot for me (which got me tons of random distance haha). So I started x-stepping and throwing lots of hyzer on the leopard. It sort of worked, but the disc is still making huge sweeping right turns (it never gets its low speed fade back to the left because it either hits the ground, or just never does it and low speed fades out). A couple of these anhyzer shots would end up really right... like if im standing pointing at the tee for 12 oclock they'd end up at 2 oclock.

If it helps, I'm probably able to toss a consistent 775-800 on this course. A par 54 (like everything) rated at about a 48... I'll shoot low 70's. High game of 68.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:41 pm

EivlEvo wrote:
Jeronimo wrote:Talk to us more about the Roc. What plastic is it? How far does it fly for you? Does it turnover for you?


All my discs are dx. I don't generally throw it off the tee since I've been trying to get my techniques down I figured it'd be better for me to throw "consistent discs" as such, I throw the leopard off the tee, the roc for approach, and the aviar for putting.

If I get a chance to get out this weekend again, I'll give it a whirl. Typically though, (before my leopard started going crazy anhyzer) it would probably be a 220' disc for me.

To be clear... turnover is when (for the leopard say) [[[I throw it hyzer, it turns over to anhyzer,]]] and then finishes with its normal low speed fade? (bracketed section is the turn over?).

If so, I've not tried (or noticed) with the roc. If I threw it anhyzer (to s curve it) it would come back level and then finish with its left fade? If that makes sense...


Yes, you've got the concept understood 100%. The Roc is the better judge for your performance at this point because for the advanced player a Roc should fly stable. Little to no turn, and minor fade out to 300'. We're not expecting you to throw your Roc 300' but it should be a goal just like any other distance goal with a Driver. What applies for mids applies for drivers. Throw it on some 300' holes, give it some moderate height in the air and let it float to its target. You may surprise yourself how far you can actually get it out. Once you do all this, report back to us. That'll be the biggest indicator of what's going on.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:47 pm

Jeronimo wrote:
EivlEvo wrote:
Jeronimo wrote:Talk to us more about the Roc. What plastic is it? How far does it fly for you? Does it turnover for you?


All my discs are dx. I don't generally throw it off the tee since I've been trying to get my techniques down I figured it'd be better for me to throw "consistent discs" as such, I throw the leopard off the tee, the roc for approach, and the aviar for putting.

If I get a chance to get out this weekend again, I'll give it a whirl. Typically though, (before my leopard started going crazy anhyzer) it would probably be a 220' disc for me.

To be clear... turnover is when (for the leopard say) [[[I throw it hyzer, it turns over to anhyzer,]]] and then finishes with its normal low speed fade? (bracketed section is the turn over?).

If so, I've not tried (or noticed) with the roc. If I threw it anhyzer (to s curve it) it would come back level and then finish with its left fade? If that makes sense...


Yes, you've got the concept understood 100%. The Roc is the better judge for your performance at this point because for the advanced player a Roc should fly stable. Little to no turn, and minor fade out to 300'. We're not expecting you to throw your Roc 300' but it should be a goal just like any other distance goal with a Driver. What applies for mids applies for drivers. Throw it on some 300' holes, give it some moderate height in the air and let it float to its target. You may surprise yourself how far you can actually get it out. Once you do all this, report back to us. That'll be the biggest indicator of what's going on.


Roger that. Thanks for all the help. Btw... noob question but since I see so many pro names on here I'm assuming that that's THE Mark Ellis? Coz your discraft vids are super cool! Theyve helped me alot!
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:48 pm

He claims it is, and it has apparently been verified. So yeah, we've got a disc golf celebrity on the boards.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Star Shark » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Jeronimo wrote:He claims it is, and it has apparently been verified. So yeah, we've got a disc golf celebrity on the boards.


We have a few

Avery and Val post once in a blue moon
David Wiggins Jr <lil wig> and Sr <dwigginsmd>
Dan Beto
Blake T
Mark Ellis
Scooter

there are probably others I'm missing
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby Dr. Burd » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:26 pm

EivlEvo wrote:To be clear... turnover is when (for the leopard say) [[[I throw it hyzer, it turns over to anhyzer,]]] and then finishes with its normal low speed fade? (bracketed section is the turn over?).


There are a few interchangeable terms tossed around that tend to mean different things based on context; 'turnover' is one of them.

A disc that flips from hyzer to flat, or from hyzer all the way over to anhyzer is a hyzer flip.
A disc thrown hyzer OR flat which flips over to anhyzer is a turnover shot.

Generally, people will not refer to a shot as a "turnover" if the disc eventually fades back left any significant amount. This is more commonly called an S-curve.

It is common for golfers to urge their disc, mid-flight, to turn over when the shot they're trying to achieve is, to some degree, an S-curve.

Further, a turnover shot is usually a shot finishing or turning right. It is not, however, the same as an anhyzer throw. The distinction is in the initial angle of release.

A shot thrown anhyzer that still comes back left is called a flex shot. This is usually done with an overstable disc, but stable discs work at certain distances/heights/power.

Ok, in reality, you can throw a flex shot with any disc if you power it down and/or throw enough nose up... but that's beside the point.
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Re: As I "get better" I get more confused.

Postby EivlEvo » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:45 pm

Dr. Burd wrote:
EivlEvo wrote:To be clear... turnover is when (for the leopard say) [[[I throw it hyzer, it turns over to anhyzer,]]] and then finishes with its normal low speed fade? (bracketed section is the turn over?).


There are a few interchangeable terms tossed around that tend to mean different things based on context; 'turnover' is one of them.

A disc that flips from hyzer to flat, or from hyzer all the way over to anhyzer is a hyzer flip.
A disc thrown hyzer OR flat which flips over to anhyzer is a turnover shot.

Generally, people will not refer to a shot as a "turnover" if the disc eventually fades back left any significant amount. This is more commonly called an S-curve.

It is common for golfers to urge their disc, mid-flight, to turn over when the shot they're trying to achieve is, to some degree, an S-curve.

Further, a turnover shot is usually a shot finishing or turning right. It is not, however, the same as an anhyzer throw. The distinction is in the initial angle of release.

A shot thrown anhyzer that still comes back left is called a flex shot. This is usually done with an overstable disc, but stable discs work at certain distances/heights/power.

Ok, in reality, you can throw a flex shot with any disc if you power it down and/or throw enough nose up... but that's beside the point.



That makes a good amount of sense. In the disc golf stickies scattered throughout the board and on the site, there's one that has the sort of definitions of what they all mean... having some sort of add-on to it like this would be great... because as you stated, there are some terms that are generally crossed around.
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