nerdy spin and hss query

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nerdy spin and hss query

Postby aDave » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:14 pm

Scenario:
I max out around 350ft (I'm working on it).
My newish 175g champ Sidewinder, released flat with nose as neutral as I can get it, climbs up to ~12' and flies dead straight for ~250' then turns right ~20° total for another 50' or so before landing flat. When I put some height on it it will then fade out another 20' or so.
3 questions:
1. Does the disc begin to turn right when the spin decreases to a point below some magical gyroscopic threshold relative to the airspeed of the disc?
2. Is this the "standard" flight path? I have been under the impression that the high speed turn happens from release until the speed drops the disc into fade.
3. How would a successful nose down release change this?

I get similar flights from my 162g star TL and 171g beat-assed champ Orc.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby keltik » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:44 pm

350' of power does produce this flight path for all the discs you listed.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JR » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:30 pm

Any disc can have a late turn if thrown with enough spin. Since spin stops at 20-25 seconds according to Dave Dunipace and speed much faster at some point in flight (usually 230'+) the spin/speed ratio is supposed to change. So that the disc would turn. And here's my question: Ain't more spin rate than speed supposed to stabilize the disc to flat flight? Reducing flippping at high speeds and retarding the onset and making fade milder at low speeds so does late turn occur from spin rate dropping even faster than the speed? That's odd to me considering how much longer the spin lasts compared to regular drives.

For not turning at 200' try more HSS discs with no OAT. At that power the most HSS Orcs at full power don't really turn and certainly not 20 degrees anny. They may turn because Orcs vary so something heftier like a Wraith won't flip but that reduces distance. Discraft's Wraith counter Surge fades less and is not as much more high speed stable than the Orc. Surge is really straight on low lines at 400' of power so it remains a very useful disc as you progress.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JHern » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:31 am

JR is right, spin stabilizes and speed de-stabilizes, but if you can put a lot more spin than usual on the disc, the rate at which the spin slows during the flight becomes much greater (super-exponential). At slower speeds the spin rate decays exponentially (i.e., it never really "stops"). The hyper-spin regime is one where you could observe the phenomenon of "late turn." That's what we've been calling it on this board, anyways.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JR » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:54 am

Thanks. It's interesting to hear about super exponential vs exponential decay of spin rate. That was news to me.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby aDave » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:05 am

Nice replies. Thanks.
Do experienced players adjust their spin rates to get different flights? I can imagine that being a useful skill.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JHern » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:55 am

aDave wrote:Nice replies. Thanks.
Do experienced players adjust their spin rates to get different flights? I can imagine that being a useful skill.


We once had a very long thread about this very same subject. There was some disagreement, but the short answer is essentially "no, that's not really a good idea." The best reason for not adding another degree of freedom to your throwing style is that it puts consistency in jeopardy. You can always achieve similar effects (adding more spin) by simply changing up the disc you're throwing without messing with your mechanics.

Spin vs. speed as good attributes of a throw also has a long history in the threads here at DGR. Basically, as you increase one, the other usually increases as well, so long as the grip at the rip scales with the forward velocity. I.e., increased grip strength equals greater spin AND speed because the rip from your grip (plus maybe a little back pull by the rip fingers at the hit, if you want "hyper-spin") produces spin and the power of your snap has to increase to get the disc to jump out of your grip at the hit when you're holding onto it more.

But anyways, there seems to be some spin dominant and some speed dominant throwers. This just means the relative degree of the throw...e.g., somebody might throw rather fast but with a great deal more hyper-spin. Speed dominant is always good for distance, so long as the disc is stable enough to avoid turning over a lot due to relatively less spin...these players always tend to have a lot of stable/over-stable plastic in their bags. Spin dominant throwing is also good for distance, in that the disc will penetrate further forward before fading out because it is spin-stabilized, will generally fly straighter/tighter lines, and allows one to drive with putters (huge advantages) and throw less stable plastic for more versatile lines... late turn is an added benefit if you can get it working.

I always suspected that I was a spin-dominant thrower owing to the way discs fly when I throw them. But I didn't really know just how fast my discs were spinning until recently when my wife and I found a gorgeous Champ Teebird fly-dye at a pro shop in Arizona. Turns out that both of us are very spin-dominant. We would need a high speed camera to quantify it, though.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby garublador » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:27 am

I'd acutally guess that at really low speeds (shorter approaches) that some might use spin to manipulate disc flight. However, at high speeds I'd guess that it's much too difficult to do reliably and almost never actually confirmed that the spin is chaning. I suspect that most players claiming to change spin on drives to get different flight paths are actually changing something else. However, I don't think that's been confirmed either.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby josser » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:50 pm

aDave wrote:Nice replies. Thanks.
Do experienced players adjust their spin rates to get different flights? I can imagine that being a useful skill.


To a minimal degree I use spin rates to control flight. If I want my putter to have little to no fade straight to the ground (I use Banger GTs which are do have decent fade) I put lots of spin on it. If I want some fade, I put less spin on it. I never do this for mids or drivers.

Of course my short range game is quite terrible these days so don't listen to me.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JR » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:30 pm

Intentionally snapping the wrist for more spin and to some extent more speed had been easiest to reproduce and give flight benefits in jump putting for me. There I get noticeably more distance and a straighter flight. It is also such a slow motion that I can do it fairly repeatably if I'm not tired.

Edit: I noticed for the first time that my custom rank had changed to another :-) That new one is fairly close because me and lcgm8 were staff at the Scandinavian Open 2010 so he too should have the same custom rank. Even though mafa wasn't there he too should be included for his work with the Tali Open, Prseident's Cup, European Open 2009 projects and slo mo of Avery Jenkins from two different angles and drive pair videos.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby jubuttib » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:19 am

JR wrote:Edit: I noticed for the first time that my custom rank had changed to another :-) That new one is fairly close because me and lcgm8 were staff at the Scandinavian Open 2010 so he too should have the same custom rank. Even though mafa wasn't there he too should be included for his work with the Tali Open, Prseident's Cup, European Open 2009 projects and slo mo of Avery Jenkins from two different angles and drive pair videos.

It's a great rank, but a bit weird since you're all Finnish and Finland isn't really a part of Scandinavia. Guess it traces it's roots to the fact that we were a part of Sweden in the past, but then again we've also been part of Eastern Europe (when under the Russians), and now we're part of Western Europe, since after joining the EU.

F*cking socio-political geography, how does it work?
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JR » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:53 am

Well we've been independent and we mostly kicked out the native Sami as well to confuse the matter more. Nordic would be correct but to Americans we're all Scandinavians. I interviewed Swedes, and Norwegians in Swedish and offered to to Danes but we talked off camera me in Swedish some of them in Danish so at least language wise I was somewhat on the ball. Playing fake Scandinavian :-)

But if you look at the Dutch 2 Euro coin we're the balls of Scandinavia and Norway plus Sweden make up the prick :-D Maybe here's where their balls went har har :-P Open season on brotherly love in the spirit of Finnkampen/Suomi-Ruotsi maaottelu hehe. Such trouble mongers those Dutch let's hate them together :-) Those that have seen The Annual Haters Ball will know this hate, hate, hate! Just kidding I filmed The Dutch Open 2010 and it was great.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby jubuttib » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:34 am

Ummm, the front side of every 2 Euro coin minted before 2007 is the same cock'n balls, it doesn't have to be Dutch. Since then they've added Norway to break it up. =)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_euro_coins
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby JR » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:35 pm

I heard it was something funny that the Dutch called the coin so that's the source of my false impression. Forgot the word but not the meaning.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: nerdy spin and hss query

Postby Parks » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:33 pm

Finland, Norway, Sweden, and hell, even Denmark all fall into the category of Bjorkajorkaland.
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