The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[Blake_T]

a concept that i have learned people have difficult differentiating between:

1. if your last feeling is the disc pulling against the fingers, it was most likely a slip.
2. if your last feeling is the fingers pulling against the disc, it was most likely a hit.

this is a very subtle yet very important concept.

[Whiz]

I cannot hit it consistently these days but I can tell the difference in the feeling due to how well I was throwing in the spring. I guess I know the feeling I am looking for. The disc definitely feels differently coming out of your grip on a slip. It is hard to describe. Personally, when I get a good hit it feels like I am pulling the disc with my fingers/wrist together at the end of the throw. My two cents.

[masterbeato]

as the theory goes:

1. "rip" is the feeling you get when the disc pulls against the fingers.
2. "spring" is the feeling you get when the fingers pull against the disc.

think of the differences in behavior of the two stages in a different way "after" the actual impact, such as:

1. hitting a brick wall with a sledge hammer.
2. hitting a brick wall with a super ball.

[Whiz]

I think I had an "aha" moment this evening. I was practicing throwing at my practice basket in my garage (about 15' away) with drivers and putters in general frustration after a terrible tournament today. I was doing the hammer drill and was getting frustrated. I would do it backhand once or twice and then do a throw trying to keep the same feeling of the weight of the disc. The disc kept coming out to the right of where I was aiming again and again. It was, however, coming out with a healthy amount of velocity. I kept trying to keep that feeling of the hammer pound and "aim" with the weight of the disc toward my target. I realized that the disc was coming out at the same angle consistently, just to the right of where I was aiming (sort of like a "griplock"). What I needed to do was adjust my body and motions and let the disc come out of the hammer pound naturally toward where I want it to go. I guess this was a "duh" moment in some ways but I am very excited to have connected the hammer pound to an actual throwing motion. I can already see how strong this may be and how accurate. I can't wait to get out tomorrow morning to throw in the field. Yay!

For anyone else trying to figure this out. Do the hammer pound and let the disc come out of your grip at the end. Shoot for that feeling. Good luck!

P.S. When I am doing the hammer pound (backhand) I basically swing the disc between my thumb and index finger and imagine it hitting the back of my forearm as it swings around.

[Blake_T]

I realized that the disc was coming out at the same angle consistently, just to the right of where I was aiming (sort of like a "griplock"). What I needed to do was adjust my body and motions and let the disc come out of the hammer pound naturally toward where I want it to go.

You are on the right track. that "griplock" effect is what it feels like to fully pivot the disc rather than have it microslip out.

I'm guessing you found that your are less "open" (more "closed") when the disc comes out than your previous throw.

[Banjar]

After some advice in my video thread, I am now prepared to do an honest attempt at getting it 'right' - so I am at the backhand hammer pound now. Having done few sessions today has lead me to a couple of questions.

My most fluid 'pounds' comes when I i dare let the disc push my wrist all the way out, and I dont tense my arm too much, but just let it be heavy. The bad pounds have a more 'sharp' feeling without that gradual increase of weight (the gradual increase of weight/load is still taking place in a very short fraction of a second). Now, my questions are a little more grip related. I find that I have to hold on *really* hard, and the tips of my fingers get really sore after 5-10 pounds, I then have to wait about 10-20 secs for the pain to disappear before I can do it again, in particullar in my pinky and ringfinger. Does that sound right? Also, sometimes the disc is not balanced against my hand and it wobbles during the pound - is that an indication of a bad grip?

1. if your last feeling is the disc pulling against the fingers, it was most likely a slip.
2. if your last feeling is the fingers pulling against the disc, it was most likely a hit.

this actually makes a lot of sense. I've experienced both feelings (infortunately it is like 99 to 1 in favor of the slip ).

[Blake_T]

Now, my questions are a little more grip related. I find that I have to hold on *really* hard, and the tips of my fingers get really sore after 5-10 pounds, I then have to wait about 10-20 secs for the pain to disappear before I can do it again, in particullar in my pinky and ringfinger. Does that sound right?

Are you talking about without letting go or pounding in succession? you are best off not pounding in succession... but once strongly. reset. pound again. reset. etc.

Also, sometimes the disc is not balanced against my hand and it wobbles during the pound - is that an indication of a bad grip?

wobbling during the pound = improper weight shift of the disc and/or the force isn't on plane.

[Banjar]

Pounding in succession without letting go, I try to just mimic your video demonstration ... And I realized that the pain is primarily in the tip of my middle finger, not the ringfinger. I will try to give my grip some attention and adjust to where the disc feels balanced, as not having the energy in my arm lined up with the disc is probably pretty bad ..

[Blake_T]

I reset between each pound during the video, which is why my arm has some bounce to it. keep in mind the point is to throw and not just pound without letting go. if you are training yourself to hold on, it's counter-productive. your goal with the throw is to increase the force of the disc LEAVING, not staying.

[Banjar]

thanks Blake, that is what I thought - I will be back in this thread when I have been able to get out in the field a few times.

[JR]

In the last field session i did i found out new things about the two index finger sections on the rim grip. It was raining and grip was an issue. I had early slips. The first ever successful two section grip throw hurt in the finger print area. I had interpreted that i should push the center joint under the lowest part of the disc. With my short fingers that messed up grip pressure and nose angle.

Not pushing the middle joint all the way in i was able to stack the middle finger on the outermost joint of the index finger and got strong rips. All the throws were short so i have no clue as to distances available with this grip yet i must do a session in dry weather and it's fall here so there's more clothing in the way. I was able to get almost as loose muscles, but not quite as loose as with two finger grip. Tendon mobility suffered slightly too. Only a little and there is potential in this grip.

It was my second session with an Axis and powering down i was able to stop my wrist occasionally at higher power levels than ever before in a real throw. Not a simulated one. It is infuriating how little power is needed to overpower the wrist stopping ability. The flight path was visibly different and all angle changes happened in slo mo.

[Banjar]

So, i got a little field time in today.
I did some throwing only doing the hammer pound with a follow through and letting the disc eject. The feeling is not nearly as painful as when I hold on to the disc at home. I also didnt totally feel the hammer pound in my throw. Most throws where came out as low hyzers in the 150-200 ft range while just focusing on the hammer pound feeling. I am not totally sure I got it the feeling right, but I will try again next time i get a chance. Right peck drill, while pounding the hammer..

I am realising i need some grip help. I always use a 3-4 finger pinch grip and place the disc between the knuckles of the index and middle finger , but I don't feel the disc pivot around my index finger, I get much more tension on the middle finger. I tried to put the disc in the seam or just above the seam in my hand today, pushing the wrist nose down, and I cant for my life pull the disc on a plane in front of me?? I simply cant rotate my wrist/underarm enough to keep the disc level when it passes my body, the opposite side of the disc is almost pointing at the ground, not at my stomach... So I extended my arm, and realise the disc is flat at the release point, and just went with it, not worryng about it and got some nice throws in, i felt a cleaner snap and tug in my index finger, and the discs where going maybe 20 feet longer than normal (from 300-320 to approx 330-350). I am sure they were OAT'ed though, as the understable turned and burned. my PD and Striker went really nice, though.

I dont think i have enough stuff to get good feedback at this point, just wanted to share some stuff. Any pointers on grip would be appreciated though! thanks.

[Blake_T]

if done correctly your goal is to have your hand gripped ~4:30 on the disc when it ejects.

from the sound of it you still aren't "throwing it like you're pounding the hammer." if you were, all those minute details you listed above wouldn't/shouldn't have come into play.

forget what you think you know or are doing. try to do something new to achieve a new result.
this isn't a modification of your old throw, it is a new way of throwing.

[JR]

The session i described in the previous post of mine showed how much (little) snap i have in a seriously technically limited form that i'm able to produce. I had so many slips in the rain even with ESP FLX XL that i used a four finger power grip and modified power grip pre squeezing medium hard and hard and was struggling to get discs to 350'. Surge SS 165 was the longest toss to 360' with stiff grips that lead to the _feeling_, not necessarily reality of the wrist not moving at all. The throws still did not feel like having a good pivot farther than the normal 3 o'clock to 3.30 rips(or should these be called micro slips?). When i loosened up the grips and allowed the wrist to waggle and not stop as well as i should be able to do it and pinched late and again not hard enough to get any later rip the longest toss was a line drive 380' with a QOLS 175, which is a way shorter disc than the Surge SS. Some front right winds were present at all times and the wind speeds varied.

Normally i can get discs to go to 400' in summer dry no wind conditions. Now it's cool fall weather so take that into account comparing distances. In field practice with skips i can get more out of Nukes. My longest line drive had some wind from rear left, but only a few MPH, and it was a Sidewinder 172 to 420'. No s-curve whatsoever and a minimal super late fade. Very tunnel usable laser flight path. That is field practice and i rarely am warmed up and fresh enough to match field distance on the course. One thing limiting course distance is the lack of room in which to make a run up.

I have a question about achieving different rip points on the disc. How much line drive distance, with low fading for that individual thrower, changes with 3 o'clock rips to 4.30 o'clock rip is there? How about a later rip, because i've achieved that too maybe only three times.

Can't remember the details of one of the throws. One was a full force Destroyer shot a couple of years back and it was my then record distance. Another was a less than full power excessively loose and late acceleration Spike throw, where i tired to actively snap the wrist and stop it. It was such a slow motion that i did manage to hammer pound and stop the wrist and get a clear feeling of the disc pivoting and a great tug in the index finger finger print area. No idea how it would have flown, because it was indoors tarp practice.

[Blake_T]

I have a question about achieving different rip points on the disc. How much line drive distance, with low fading for that individual thrower, changes with 3 o'clock rips to 4.30 o'clock rip is there? How about a later rip, because i've achieved that too maybe only three times.

It's usually a sliding scale. from my experiences the difference between 3 o'clock and 4:30 is roughly 50'. most disc golfers let go between 12:00 and 1:30.