The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Leopard » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:58 am

fixed:
Blake_T wrote:disc golfers do science between 2:30 and 3:00 am.

you're a machine Blake -- wtf are you doing up? nuts.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:34 am

Blake_T wrote:
I have a question about achieving different rip points on the disc. How much line drive distance, with low fading for that individual thrower, changes with 3 o'clock rips to 4.30 o'clock rip is there? How about a later rip, because i've achieved that too maybe only three times.


It's usually a sliding scale. from my experiences the difference between 3 o'clock and 4:30 is roughly 50'. most disc golfers let go between 12:00 and 1:30.


Seeing that in wet weather i threw a shorter disc 30' beyond a stiff wrist form disc and in good weather i've managed 70' more as an airshot at best i would think my results are in line with your previously stated comment, that once people snap they get an immediate 50' jump in distance. I've been waiting for that to happen and haven't seen any abrupt jumps. Since i first read that 50' increase comment DGR has spoken of half hitting and big snap.

I've wondered if my gradual improvement to half hitting 50'ish past a stiff wristed throw still leaves another 50' gain to be achieved, when and if i ever develop better wrist stopping and pivot. Possibly through different timing, body positions and muscle power improvements along with guiding the body better. From what you wrote this should be in the cards. After all there are people out there, that do thrower well past that additional 50' for me.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:36 am

Leopard wrote:fixed:
Blake_T wrote:disc golfers do science between 2:30 and 3:00 am.

you're a machine Blake -- wtf are you doing up? nuts.


Every throw is practicing science. We have players all over so there are multiple time zones and some of us DG in places, where the sun is up for months on end. So 3AM DG ain't a problem. Man up and throw :-D And don't give me whining of DST, get lit discs or LEDS/lights to your discs and voilá.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:09 pm

Seeing that in wet weather i threw a shorter disc 30' beyond a stiff wrist form disc and in good weather i've managed 70' more as an airshot at best i would think my results are in line with your previously stated comment, that once people snap they get an immediate 50' jump in distance. I've been waiting for that to happen and haven't seen any abrupt jumps. Since i first read that 50' increase comment DGR has spoken of half hitting and big snap.

I've wondered if my gradual improvement to half hitting 50'ish past a stiff wristed throw still leaves another 50' gain to be achieved, when and if i ever develop better wrist stopping and pivot. Possibly through different timing, body positions and muscle power improvements along with guiding the body better. From what you wrote this should be in the cards. After all there are people out there, that do thrower well past that additional 50' for me.


a 1 o'clock release vs. 3 o'clock release is about 50'. a 3 o'clock release vs. 4:30 release is about 50'.

that can be say... 380' vs. 480' with a destroyer on a max pull if you do a shift from 1 to 4:30.

there is another "trick" that the massive snap guys do... and it basically involves separating the throw into 2 distinct parts.
1) getting the disc tucked into the pocket of the power zone with maximum tendon load.
2) unloading from the pocket.

#1 basically involves moving the disc. #2 is throwing the disc.

with the big snap throwers you'll notice a pause between #1 and #2 (even if it's only for an instant). something wacky happens with the unloading of the tendons in these cases that yields the huge snap (e.g. 500' line drive power).
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:00 pm

Is there a feeling associated with these later releases of the disc(3 o'clock/4:30)? Whenever I "griplock" the disc it never feels strong. Is there an aspect of the hammer pound drill I should be focusing on to get a better sense of this full-pivot feeling?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:36 pm

For me a full pivot is easy to feel in the friction between the disc and the index finger and thumb finger print area. The tug is harder in the index finger in the later rip.

Paul McBeth has a fairly visible separation between #1 and #2.

How do you think the getting into pocket goes with Chris Voigt? He starts out with the disc away from the body and brings it in the arm pit area close to the chest.

Do you mean that the pocket is elbow well forward of the right side at the right pec position with the disc partially under the pec and top part of the bicep? So that the disc would cut through the body if it had been pulled from a close to the body reach back position in a straight line forward.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:40 pm

Is there a feeling associated with these later releases of the disc(3 o'clock/4:30)? Whenever I "griplock" the disc it never feels strong. Is there an aspect of the hammer pound drill I should be focusing on to get a better sense of this full-pivot feeling?


the body is usually super relaxed leading up to this point. if you aren't reaching that point then chances are your upper body rotated too fast to ever allow the disc to reach this position. you should trace in slow motion what positions will trigger this behavior. that should let you know where or what you are doing preventing it from happening.

it feels more like you are moving your body around the disc vs. moving the disc around your body.

Do you mean that the pocket is elbow well forward of the right side at the right pec position with the disc partially under the pec and top part of the bicep? So that the disc would cut through the body if it had been pulled from a close to the body reach back position in a straight line forward.


the furthest most point the disc reaches before the elbow uncoils; you should have sort of a "spiral" of your arm around the disc (although the disc is lower than your arm). the handle pull / reverse thumb lead basically trains you to reach a pocket with an absurd amount of tendon tension. i wouldn't be surprised if the disc was carrying at least 40 lbs of force in the pocket on those throws.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby LtDan914 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:10 pm

Blake_T wrote:
it feels more like you are moving your body around the disc vs. moving the disc around your body.



I would say that is a pretty good description. Today I was not getting that feeling because I think I was starting my pull early and not staying loose. Other days though I can put my pro destroyer 450' maybe even getting close to 500' on fairly straight lines. When this happens I can definitely feel my body move around the disc. The key for me I think is staying as loose as possible until the disc gets in that pocket. If I tense my muscles up any before then, I can feel the lack of power in my throws.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:17 pm

Do i interpret correctly, that your body moving around the disc feeling comes from the legs doing the other half of the turning, hips twisting and shoulders turning with possibly a little pull back of the arm spinning the disc with all of the muscles and weight in those areas.

I interpreted that i wasn't too far off in the pocket location description i made before then. Comments? I think you meant the same just in different words. That is the place, where i put the disc keeping the thumb nail pointed the other direction than the throw as long as possible. If i manage to have long enough of a pause and get the elbow forward enough. There's definitely a lot of muscle looseness needed for me to get the pause that long and the elbow that far forward.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Whiz » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:11 pm

In regards to the feeling of "throwing/pounding the hammer":

I was in a clinic Feldberg did recently and he suggested picking up a golf iron and trying to throw it straight ahead of you as if you were doing a golf throw. He basically stressed the importance of bringing the handle as far towards the target as possible before throwing the club. Any thoughts? I plan to pick up a cheap iron and try throwing it tomorrow. We will see how it goes.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:19 pm

Do i interpret correctly, that your body moving around the disc feeling comes from the legs doing the other half of the turning, hips twisting and shoulders turning with possibly a little pull back of the arm spinning the disc with all of the muscles and weight in those areas.


I'm not sure exactly, i just know when i'm throwing well this is how it feels. i think a lot of it has to do with the appropriate amount of rotation at the backswing and making sure my weight shift has proper timing.

I interpreted that i wasn't too far off in the pocket location description i made before then. Comments? I think you meant the same just in different words. That is the place, where i put the disc keeping the thumb nail pointed the other direction than the throw as long as possible. If i manage to have long enough of a pause and get the elbow forward enough. There's definitely a lot of muscle looseness needed for me to get the pause that long and the elbow that far forward.


yeah. the pocket is pretty much when if someone took a snap shot from above, the hand would be at ~9 o'clock and the bicep would be at ~3 o'clock (even though the disc is much lower than the bicep). one thing to note, is that the pocket doesn't start until after the disc passes beyond the right edge of your body.

another thing in terms of separating the parts of the throw into two sections...
it is almost like you are thrusting the disc into the pocket and then stopping it before you unload. if you try and stop a moving object that is larger than you, e.g. a rolling car, the same tendon loading will happen and you are in a better position to "push back" (equivalent to "unloading).
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby archimedesjs » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:20 pm

I was out hucking a few after a bunch of rounds today, and my body was tired which allowed me to remain loose and relaxed without thinking about it. During my throw I felt like I stayed very loose until the disc was out in front of me, then I was exploding on the follow through. Almost like I was just yanking it back and to the right of me. I was really getting some bombs(for me anyway.) I was throwing my leopards and teebirds out to 400', but I could still feel the disc slipping out of my hand. On a few of the drives though I held on a bit longer, and didn't get an audible snap off of my fingers, the disc went about 30 degrees from my line, but it was crushed and felt very powerful. I'm assuming that's what the full-pivot feels like. It didn't slip off of my fingers, and it wasn't griplocked. The disc pulled on my fingers, and I was able to actively pull back. The issue is I could not duplicate it on command, and there was no accuracy with it because it was coming out to the right. I was also unable to determine what it was I was doing to cause that to happen. I'm assuming that it's just a timing issue, but even if I am able to resolve that, all of those throws(assuming I get the pivot) are going to go to the right. Should I be feeling that same strong grip feeling earlier, or am I starting to explode too early?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:33 pm

sounds like you are getting close.

i get louder audible pops on slips than rips, so don't use that as any positive indicator.

the 30 degree pull is likely a couple of things, but mostly you were probably too open at that point. try making sure you close a full 180 degrees on your reach back and use a closed stance approach (right foot beyond your left foot). another thing that can help with this is having your right toes pointed ~100 degrees away from the target when you set it down. basically, i'm guessing you aren't closing enough so that what is supposed to happen at the right time is happening 30 degrees late.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby archimedesjs » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:00 pm

The lack of the pop sound was actually what lead me to believe I was doing something right. As far as I know I'm turning a full 180 on my reach back, but I have been keeping my feet parallel to one another, not staggered in a closed position. I also keep my right foot's toes pointing closer to 90 than 100 degrees from the target. I'll make those tweaks the next time I get to hit the fields, and try to get the timing right. Unfortunately it wont' be until next friday or saturday. Hopefully I will be able to duplicate what I did today and incorporate this new positional information. Thanks Blake.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby fanter » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:04 pm

It seems like having my plant foot turned >90 degrees is what caused me some noticeable knee stress.
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