The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby DiscinLeopard » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:49 pm

Thanks for this Blake. I will definitely be reading this tonight and tomorrow morning and for a long time until I get a lot of my situation taken care of, and this should help that out a lot.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby colombo117 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:00 am

Awesome job explaining the mechanics of these throws. I went to leagues last night and tried to implement these ideas and my game went south. Definitely need to try it in a field and not when money is on the line, but I could not resist. Thanks.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:47 am

It has taken a few days of field practice for this to sink in. At first it was awkward bringing the new motion into my throw. Just like it was with the right pec drill. I can get the hard "hammer pound" feel from both drills. Integrating it with my throw while still being fluid was hard.WHEN to pound the hammer.

I had a good moment today! I was working on trying to get my lower body in my throw more by walking through the shot. I had one throw where I grip locked far to the right of my body. It felt like the hammer pound. That's when I knew the timing for the hammer pound and the added umph. I adjusted and my next throw with a pro destroyer went a good 30' over 400. It's weird. All this talk about late acceleration and it seems I wasn't accelerating at all at the very end. Too loose I guess! Anyways. I feel like a full time half-hitter now! 8) My teebird is getting a little bit of turn and going 375-400!

The hammer drill really nailed the feeling I was searching for. The grip locked showed I wasn't accelerating at the right time(the hit).

Thanks Blake and friends!
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:55 am

MrScoopa wrote:It has taken a few days of field practice for this to sink in. At first it was awkward bringing the new motion into my throw. Just like it was with the right pec drill. I can get the hard "hammer pound" feel from both drills. Integrating it with my throw while still being fluid was hard.WHEN to pound the hammer.


Awesome job of sticking with it! Its just like learning a new instrument. Its going to feel awkward at first but you have to trust that the reward is much greater than not sticking with it.

MrScoopa wrote:I had a good moment today! I was working on trying to get my lower body in my throw more by walking through the shot. I had one throw where I grip locked far to the right of my body. It felt like the hammer pound. That's when I knew the timing for the hammer pound and the added umph. I adjusted and my next throw with a pro destroyer went a good 30' over 400.


Have you tried pounding the hammer and then stopping your arm right as the wrist powers open? If you look down your arm, it should be slightly bent at the elbow and your thumb should be pointing directly in line with how the disc will release. When Blake first told me this, i think i giggled like a little school girl with excitement, because as I found out, it's truly spot on for aiming. You might try that to ensure your truly on line, but it sounds like you stumbled upon it without really knowing it. I have added doing 3 hammer pounds and a stop to my pre-throw routine. This way i can get the "Feel" for pounding the hammer, and then i know if Im on or off the line i want to hit. Then its just a matter of adjusting my run up so that Im throwing on that line.

Remember: Practice how you Play, and Play how you Practice (meaning use the same routine for both). This will also help to build familiarity with the techniques in practice so when you step up on the tee pad, your simply completing the exercise for the umpteenth time versus feeling like your trying to integrate it in to your throw.

MrScoopa wrote:All this talk about late acceleration and it seems I wasn't accelerating at all at the very end. Too loose I guess! Anyways. I feel like a full time half-hitter now! My teebird is getting a little bit of turn and going 375-400!


Nice! Throwing older slower plastic that other people dont want to mess with is a sure fire way to get in your competitors head. I love hearing someone go, "You threw what?!?!"

Its almost as much fun as waiting to throw on a hole with a disc you obviously should not be throwing for that shot. Just be sure to show off the disc you are sitting there with so everyone can see it. Its usually good for getting one or more people to change their mind on what disc to use. Then you pick up your best disc and park that mofo. If the disc you show off and the disc you actually throw are the same color, its even better. Just dont let anyone see the disc you actually threw or they might get wise to you. My thanks for that tip goes out to Bob Vanderboss - 1995 Masters World Champ.

MrScoopa wrote:The hammer drill really nailed the feeling I was searching for. The grip locked showed I wasn't accelerating at the right time(the hit).


Congrats! You managed to figure 2 things out that will undoubtedly change your disc golf game forever. Keep at it and work it until it bleeds. Remember, its not a routine if you have to think about it. Let it all become second nature.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby patdabunny » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:27 am

MrScoopa wrote:My teebird is getting a little bit of turn and going 375-400!!


Good for you! It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it. I have had a couple of BIG S shots with TBs that rode the wind for what seemed like days! The late acceleration is critical to get TBs to go 400'+. It's obvious when the late accel isn't there, at least to me.
My putter doinks harder than yours!

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:22 pm

patdabunny wrote:It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.


Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:06 pm

I have a tip for the failed part 4 drill the lever. I had trouble holding on to the disc for long enough and trying to push to the right with the thumb both vertical and BH. I clearly had slips with my Wizard with the thumb. The lower the disc and thinner the rim and preferably no bead the disc has the easier it is for people with small hands to learn these things that are sought after in the drills. The thing that pushed me forward with the Wizard S 150 with a stiffish flight plate and fairly slick surface was moving my thumb toward the center from the neutral position. Neutral being thumb finger print half on the wing half on the flight plate. Doing the throwing equivalent of Blake's earlier drill with shooting coins right from table top with the thumb alone never worked for me with a disc prior to this change. I have yet to try out how soft flight plates I can use without a loss of consistency but even that stiffish Wizard had some give in the flight plate under the thumb. I haven't seen 2003 PDGA Worlds DVD in ages but I think Climo showed thumb in on the flight plate grip "for better control" or something like that. Seems to work in drills.

I have yet to try out this in practice because I get no practice or playing time :-( Just doing the drills on top of my hectic work schedule retarded recuperation after work. My body may not be ready but man what added power I felt from just the drills. I have definitely been half hitting at best. So far the best feeling I have gotten is with an old trick combo that has always been more than my busted arm has been able to handle. The way I've trained on adding spin is to late accelerate hard actively snapping the wrist suddenly stopping the wrist whip while yanking back with the shoulders and elbow. Getting the elbow more bent after having it straighter before the yank back. The timing is very late but I'm too early compared to the one inch short of the arm being straight pointed at the target that Feldy teaches saying: "It's huge". More tendon strengthening and muscle building for me during the winter time so that I may be whacking instead of full hitting the next summer :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby patdabunny » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:42 pm

USAnarchy wrote:
patdabunny wrote:It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.


Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.


Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).
My putter doinks harder than yours!

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:32 pm

patdabunny wrote:
USAnarchy wrote:
patdabunny wrote:It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.


Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.


Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).

Not as FAR.... as FAST....

Im a big fan of flat line drive throws for judging distance. Plus and its a great way to develop accurate Golf D versus Max D. But i hear that throwing flat line drives is a Tennessee thing... so maybe im the only one.

I was out practicing "Pounding The Hammer" this evening, and I had a breakthrough. Im not sure i fully understand what Im doing so i need to get with Blake on it just to clarify. All I can say is that it was the most spin and speed i have ever put on a disc in my life. And after an hour of doing it, I can repeat it everytime.

Im excited, but im scared at the same time... my hand and finger tips are sore from how hard the disc was ripping out of my hand. It makes me wish i had been in an open field to see how far i could have gotten my drives.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby ManU » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:48 pm

so after going through the super secret technique thread and the incomplete secret technique thread and compiling the notes and drills into my own 6 pages of notes (thank you cut and paste)
I spent some time reading the drills, watching the videos and trying to pound the hammer and yo yo etc
I just now got back from an hour and a half in a field throwing leopards and donating a pint of blood to the mosquitos (with all the chemicals and pollutants in the world why aren't these freaking things extinct yet? frigging polar bears are drowning but the mosquito sucks on)

and I am happy to report that I also still SUCK
best throw 330...actually it might have been longer if it was on a proper line but I had great OAT (might have been the mild head wind), it still covered the length of a Canadian football field just not in a straight line from goal post to goal post

some of my standing throws trying to just pound the hammer were probably about 250
so is this a good result?
is it shit?

I just don't get it
obviously I must still strong arming it

so do some people just get it?
do some people just have what it takes to throw?

clearly I can't base this on just one field session and I need to go out and do more but this right royally sucks

maybe one of you 500 foot throwers can shed some light on this
cause right now I am not half hitting it...I doubt I am even a quarter hitting it

I expect that a 500 foot thrower or the person throwing a Roc 375 would be able to throw a leopard a lot further than 330 feet

anyway basic question how do you get spin and speed on a disc? (let me guess...do these drills)
when and how should you feel the weight of the disc cause I swear I can't feel it
how exactly do you stop your wrist?
is it an active stop?


urrgh
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:12 pm

Something that I am having a lot of success with in addition to my 3 backhand hammer pounds before each throw is doing the right pec drill and pounding the hammer.

Just practicing that. Get out in the open and go from basket to basket, or tree to tree. Give yourself something to aim for and then perform the right pec drill and as you rotate open pound the hammer and let that disc fly.

If you are having trouble hitting the hammer while doing the right pec drill then some other aspect is off. If thats the case. do a stand still hammer pound. Find the feeling. Work it till it bleeds. Once you can pound the hammer without mentally focusing on pounding the hammer, try the right pec drill again. It should try and really blow open when you do it. I mean with some speed son! You should feel a real good weight shift. Just as if you were swinging a hammer using your disc golf grip.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby ManU » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:23 pm

practice does not make perfect
practice makes permanent
and if I keep practicing imperfect technique I am going to make it permanent
as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing, I am not sure where and when I should be facing, I am sure that I am not late accelerating (and I don't know how to fix it), I can't seem to grasp the final fling of the hammer head
I'm effing frustrated

going into my 3rd year of playing and still I can't get past 300 consistently :x
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Segovia » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:44 pm

The easy answer would be to have a local who knows what they're doing take a look at your throw to see any obvious flaws. Another option would be posting a video and getting it broken down by somebody on this site. Would either of those be an option?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:12 pm

ManU wrote:so after going through the super secret technique thread and the incomplete secret technique thread and compiling the notes and drills into my own 6 pages of notes (thank you cut and paste)
I spent some time reading the drills, watching the videos and trying to pound the hammer and yo yo etc
I just now got back from an hour and a half in a field throwing leopards


Congratulations! I applaude you on your effort. Limited are the players willing to fore go a round with friends to advance his ass kicking skills (that and its a great way to get extra money for new plastic. :twisted: )


ManU wrote:and I am happy to report that I also still SUCK


sounds like a bad craigslist personals ad (JUST KIDDING, but really :lol: what's with being a Negative Nancy?)

ManU wrote:best throw 330...actually it might have been longer if it was on a proper line but I had great OAT.


We all started somewhere. The fact is that if you are clearing 300 you are in the top 50% of most regular disc golf players distance. Did you also know 73% of the time, 1 out of every 4 statistics are made up on the spot? In all seriousness, when i started all i could throw was a stiff spike hyzer about 50 feet. Did I mention it was usually about 100 feet in the air? I hated windy days of disc golf. Fo' sho.

What makes you suspect off axis torque? It would help diagnose the problem.

ManU wrote:some of my standing throws trying to just pound the hammer were probably about 250. so is this a good result? is it shit?


I think Blake deduced that most average males can throw a standstill 330 just using their arm. Not sure how these incomplete techniques are affecting that number now. Its still too early to tell i think. So 250 is just fine. You have room to improve, but I know you can. Your putting in the practice neccessary to do so.

ManU wrote:I just don't get it. obviously I must still strong arming it


Think of the throw like pulling back on a spring door stop. (who hasnt flicked one to hear that spring sing). The spring at rest is you standing on the tee box. Your X-Step is you pulling back the spring. The spring stopping at its maximum amount of extension (or load) is you performing your reachback.

Now, when you release the spring, where does the first reaction happen? At the bottom of the spring (your feet). It is bearing the most load, where as the top of the spring (the disc during your reachback) has the least amount of load (tension, a.k.a. body tension)

Now understand that these actions should occur naturally if you dont force it, and you have set yourself up by performing the x-step properly. Its called kinetic linking. You are creating a transfer of motion that starts at the bottom of your body and slowly builds faster and stronger as it works its way up your body. Its like an ocean wave. Once you start the motion of transferring the energy, everything happens as a direct reaction to the previous action that just occured.It cant stop. It wont stop. It shouldnt be stopped. Go with the flow. Be smooth about it. Allow it to happen. Be as loose as a goose so you can pour on the juice.

The feet load the legs, legs load the hips. This causes the hips to drive open. As they rotate open it causes your torso to rotate your upper body/shoulders. By this point your arm should be trying to crack through like a whip.

Now, this is where the right pec drill comes in handy. As your arm is pulling through, you will find that you are set up perfectly for the right pec drill.

Perform right pec drill and pound the hammer.

Now, if you notice when you released the spring, it reached a point of maximum extension in the complete opposite direction before snapping back again. This would be the same as your release. your arm is extended out in front of you as the disc leaves your hand.

ManU wrote:so do some people just get it?


yes. those people are usually called "people who practice".

ManU wrote:do some people just have what it takes to throw?


yes. they usually have a strong athletic background. i.e. sports, martial arts, etc.

That is not to say that you cant pick it up. You just have to find your bent. Look up that word. Its a word from your grandfather's era. It basically means your natural talent. What comes natural to you. You might be a science nerd who can speak techno-babble with the best of them. Maybe you enjoy wildlife, or wood working, or whatever. Maybe it would help to visualize the objectives in a manner that is more familiar to you and your bent. Who knows. You might be a bouncer at the local Chuck-E-Cheese Pizza. If so, act like your trying to play the Whack-a-Mole game. Maybe you can play Pound The Mole instead of Pound The Hammer.

ManU wrote:clearly I can't base this on just one field session
.

That's like trying to eat just one Pringle. It can't happen if you want the results.

ManU wrote:maybe one of you 500 foot throwers can shed some light on this. I expect that a 500 foot thrower or the person throwing a Roc 375 would be able to throw a leopard a lot further than 330 feet.


I suck compared to Dan Beato, but here it goes. Longest drive this year: 585feet - 175 beat star boss - Anny Flex. Longest straight flat drive - 430feet - 175 star wraith. Longest drive with a midrange: 417feet (also happens to be my longest ace which i just hit on the 5th of this month) - 12X KC Pro Flat Top Roc (Don't even ask... Ching Rocs have nothing on these...)

Dan is really the one that needs to be spilling the beans. The word on the streets is this man can donkey punch a disc out past the 7's.

ManU wrote:anyway basic question how do you get spin and speed on a disc? (let me guess...do these drills)


See above. Write it all down. Let the medicine take.

ManU wrote:When and how should you feel the weight of the disc cause I swear I can't feel it.


WARNING: DISCLAIMER: By Performing These Drills, you agree to not hold me personally, or any person or person(s) on this forum, DiscGolfReview.com, or any person or person(s) who own/run/maintain the website.

Take a hammer out. Yes a hammer. Hold the handle near the bottom while using your disc golf grip. Now slowly (i said slowly. not slow, not medium, not fast) go through the motion of the hammer pound. i didnt say try to pound the hammer. Dont even try to throw it. Just go through the motion. Your shoulder should drive the elbow which drives the forearm which drives the wrist. Feel the weight of the hammer head as it pivots around your wrist.

Now, you should know what similar sensation you should "Feel". And trust me, when you do it, you can feel it and the weight of the disc as it trys to pivot out of your hand.

ManU wrote:How exactly do you stop your wrist? is it an active stop?


You dont. You allow it to acheive maximum extension and stop on its own.

ManU wrote:practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent. If I keep practicing imperfect technique I am going to make it permanent


Why do you have to practice the wrong technique? You are still in the "Learning" or "Concept" phase. You have yet to reach the AH-HA moment. Cut yourself some slack.

ManU wrote:as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing, I am not sure where and when I should be facing, I am sure that I am not late accelerating (and I don't know how to fix it), I can't seem to grasp the final fling of the hammer head
I'm effing frustrated


Calm down. Deep breaths. I think i answered these things above.

ManU wrote:going into my 3rd year of playing and still I can't get past 300 consistently


You will have a much easier time if you take a positive attitude towards this instead of buidling up a negative stigma around an aspect of your game that WILL cause you future issues and create more mental work to fix a part of your game that you are still trying to learn at this time. When you can shoot some hot 950+ rated rounds, then you can start kicking yourself.
Last edited by USAnarchy on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
Know What You Throw. Throw What You Know.
It's Not A Routine If You Have To Think About It.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:33 pm

A little motivation for you:

Thomas Alva Edison Quotes:

■ Discontent is the first necessity of progress.

■ Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration.

■ Great ideas originate in the muscles.

■ I find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (meaning take pride in the fact that your working hard to acheive your goal)

■ I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

and if that hasnt motivated you yet, just keep this in mind next time your practicing:

■ I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Remember, its disc golf. You wouldn't be practicing if you didnt love the game and have fun playing it.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
Know What You Throw. Throw What You Know.
It's Not A Routine If You Have To Think About It.
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