The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby masterbeato » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:15 pm

ManU wrote:practice does not make perfect
as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing,


timing is the hardest thing to learn, when you have perfect timing it is more superior than body positions.

this drill teaches you timing!
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:17 pm

ManU:

are you able to feel it during the drills? if no, you are doing the drills wrong.

if you are able to feel it during the drills but not during the throw, then you aren't throwing like the drills.

(not directed directly at you, but people in general here that might be struggling:)
if you count the # of hours i've spent in fields working with players attempting to get them to do something different than their normal throw, you'd get a number that epitomizes why i don't do lessons anymore with the general public. honestly, these drills are about as easy as it's going to get. i doubt i could find a way to simplify them even more.

getting something from the drills is the responsibility of the thrower. the reason i developed the hammer pound over what's already been done like the towel drill, is that i find like 1 in 30 people can actually translate what they learn from the towel drill back into their throw. with the hammer pound, this becomes the throw and you rebuild around that foundation.

basically, you have to shed the bad mechanics and rebuild with good ones. ditching the bad is harder for some people than others.

(and back to you:)
if you aren't getting 300' consistently, i'd say 250' is about what to expect without having a breakthrough. 250/300 = 83.3%. if you can throw 83.3% of your normal distance using a 16" pound motion and no extra body forces, i'd say that's fairly efficient (meaning a run up, reach back, shoulder turn, etc. = 16.7% of your power).

practice does make permanent. what you are battling against is previous notions of the throw. as i said before i unveiled it, this is simply a rethinking of the throw. you have to in turn, drop your old thoughts about throwing and try to form new thoughts about what the throw is. the feedback i have gotten so far is that this is EXTREMELY different from what most people are accustomed to feeling during their throw.

most have had some sort of light bulb click, either in regards to the sidearm, overhand, backhand, or all three (many were able to build upon their previous sidearm throw to translate it to backhand, etc.) but in nearly all cases, the first successes were met with a few days/weeks of crappy throwing. the previous muscle memory causes relapses that leads to half-old and half-new throws. this usually sucks. when you get a feel that is new/foreign to you but feels strong, remember it.

(back to everyone:)
remember that i wrote a while back that it's generally accepted in most sports that it takes 20,000 reps of a new motion to build muscle memory. until you clear that hurdle you will likely relapse into the old or a halfway point.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Banjar » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:19 pm

Just a quick conceptual question for the backhand hammer pounding..

the nail I am pounding with my backhand is where exactly? is the nail "pointing" at my desired target or perpendicullar to it?
I hereby commit myself to actually do the drills, rather than just trying them for a few times and expect results.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:24 pm

there's no real nail backhand, considering that you would never pound a hammer that way and there isn't really a conceptual "point of contact" for the nail and hammer-head that makes enough sense to have me recommend trying that.

the backhand hammer pound is mainly meant to replicate the weight shift and timing that is easier to achieve sidearm and then mirroring the other direction. i wrote about finding the point of release as well and that is more critical than any virtual nail. if you want to think of the point of release as being where the nail is, you are welcome to but imo, it makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

if you're able to feel the weight of the hammer backhand, you're pretty much there.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby masterbeato » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:32 pm

Blake_T wrote:there's no real nail backhand, considering that you would never pound a hammer that way and there isn't really a conceptual "point of contact" for the nail and hammer-head that makes enough sense to have me recommend trying that.

the backhand hammer pound is mainly meant to replicate the weight shift and timing that is easier to achieve sidearm and then mirroring the other direction. i wrote about finding the point of release as well and that is more critical than any virtual nail. if you want to think of the point of release as being where the nail is, you are welcome to but imo, it makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

if you're able to feel the weight of the hammer backhand, you're pretty much there.


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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:44 pm

Forgive the following rambling. It is meant to let ManU know that there are others that are also not succeeding despite putting in the effort. And to remind those that are succeeding that the equivalent of "repeating things only louder" is often not getting through (but I still honestly and truly appreciate the time and effort that you all put in to help).


ManU I feel you. I am in a similar boat to you. I can sort out when I completely don't do a certain thing properly, like I purposely tensed me arm for the entire hammer pound so that I could get a feel for not properly relaxing my arm. But once I get beyond halfway there I have no idea or feel for how well I am doing it beyond "not a complete disaster". And much like you, I don't want to put in a bunch of practice time getting it half right because I don't want to spend the next year unlearning the half I did wrong (see below for previous experience following this path).

This is the big difference between practice and what people in education circles call effortful practice. Effortful practice is all about practicing something that pushes just beyond your current comfort zone in a way which will lead to improvement. But this sort of practice requires some sort of meta-understanding. For a brain task, it is metacognition, which is being able to think about your own thinking. For a physical task, it probably has a name that I don't know, but it is basically being able to feel/understand quite precisely how well you are performing a certain physical objective (which usually goes hand in hand as coming from a strong athletic background). I don't have this meta-feel. It's terrible black and white for me. I can tell that I am either doing it in a god-awful way or that I am doing it somewhere on the 50-100% correct spectrum, but I usually have no idea where in the 50-100% other than judging from the results. I often can't tell the difference between my throws that go 300' and those that go 350' except that one lands further away.

Non-effortful practice is trying to practice throws without meta-feel and it is the same as just going to the field and throwing as hard as you can over and over and hoping that it eventually will get you more distance. In my case it taught me to be fantastic at strong-arming discs all the way out to 250' and then I spent the last year trying to unlearn all those awful habits and simply break 275' consistently. ManU, I feel your pain.

So Blake has a reasonably idiot-proof system, but I went and built a better idiot. I am trying hard to see if what I am doing is similar to the videos, which is not the exact point of the videos. I try to use my 50% correct hammer pound in the field and get results that are not terrible but nowhere near the distances that Blake says should be easily achievable.

ManU and I are the folks that would benefit the most from live coaches. Somebody who can take the place of our lack of meta-feel and watch us do something 10 times and point out when we are doing it OK and when we are doing it quite well in real time. With that sort of help folks like me have a chance of being able to turn that black and white into shades of gray. And tell the difference between 60% correct and 80% correct.


Anyway, thank you to everybody that patiently answers questions and does their best to help. It is very much appreciated. If you can put a Blake drill into practice that same day, remember that we non-meta-feel types are often struggling the most with shades of gray.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:38 am

josser:

i can understand the frustration but at the same time, there isn't much anyone can do to train someone to know if they are doing it right or wrong by a reason other than the result. if you will gain anything from it, it will be from trial and error, learning what you can along the way.

the questions that both of you are asking are making it clear to me that you are off the correct path in both body and mind. it's not just a failure of the body to execute the motion, if you don't notice the physical cues associated with a success or failure, it is also a problem in the mind. also, it's a problem in the mind if you can't shed preconceived notions of the motion to just rely on your senses to feel it.

basically, if you can't build a feel for it, having a coach there wouldn't amount to much, and from my experiences with most players, if i stand there and tell them if they are doing it right or not, i basically got a rep for a while as being a very negative teacher and person because i was working with a few people where i did that with them. e.g. across 50 throws giving them 1 thing to focus on i'd basically say "yep" or "nope" if they did it right or wrong. if i told them to keep the disc tight to their body during the pull and they did it wrong 45 out of 50 throws, it was a lot of "nopes."

these drills is meant to eliminate the need for meta-understanding. it's a foreign idea to me to not know if something was better or worse. i can say that some of my throws where i've hit it the hardest have not been my longest throws (usually i didn't hit the angles correctly but absolutely slammed the timing and i over-turned it). feeling stronger is better than feeling weaker. the goal is to do things that make it feel stronger.

timing improvements don't require flight improvements because there's so many more variables to compensate for in that. it's also not as simple as like, learning to pound a nail into a board with 1 swing since there isn't the obvious immediate feedback of the nail being pounded all the way in or not. at the same time, most people should be better at pounding in said nails with 1 swing after 200 tries than during their first 10 and that probably doesn't require understanding of the mechanics of swinging a hammer (it can be built by feel). similarly, if you do it 50% correct and keep working on making it stronger, you should be more like 60% then 70% then 80% and so forth.

back when i was trying to learn the bent elbow throw in 2002 i went out every day for 23 days and threw until my hand would bleed and then throw 75 more throws. this was anywhere in the 150-500 throws per day range. i didn't know wtf i was searching for but i kept trying until it clicked. the key was doing something slightly different after each failure in order to get a different feel and hopefully success. when it finally clicked i went out for 23 more days in a row but threw twice as many throws as before i figured it out since it was now fun instead of frustrating.

build up. do it differently. feel the difference, if it's better, try to duplicate it, if it's worse, change it up. when you can duplicate better, refine it and try to make it even better.

why i keep repeating myself is because the wrong questions are getting asked. the wrong questions imply a mindset that is far removed from the "easy" one.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby patdabunny » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:12 am

USAnarchy wrote:
patdabunny wrote:
USAnarchy wrote:
patdabunny wrote:It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.


Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.


Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).

Not as FAR.... as FAST....

Im a big fan of flat line drive throws for judging distance. Plus and its a great way to develop accurate Golf D versus Max D. But i hear that throwing flat line drives is a Tennessee thing... so maybe im the only one.

I was out practicing "Pounding The Hammer" this evening, and I had a breakthrough. Im not sure i fully understand what Im doing so i need to get with Blake on it just to clarify. All I can say is that it was the most spin and speed i have ever put on a disc in my life. And after an hour of doing it, I can repeat it everytime.

Im excited, but im scared at the same time... my hand and finger tips are sore from how hard the disc was ripping out of my hand. It makes me wish i had been in an open field to see how far i could have gotten my drives.


I throw almost all of my drives as line drives. I don't throw "distance throws", per se. Almost all of my throws are concentrated in one area, not sprayed out. It's like that with TBs, Bosses, and pretty much anything I throw. I've just never learned to "let go" and throw as hard as I could without looking at where I'm throwing it. Other people can, I just can't. Call me a control freak or whatever...;)

So, it must be a KY thing, too. Since KY and TN are close, we'll call it one and the same! :)
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:58 am

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The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
Know What You Throw. Throw What You Know.
It's Not A Routine If You Have To Think About It.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:40 am

Hey I'm up north and still throw flat shots when possible.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby ManU » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:27 am

like I said when I made my first post I should have taken a day to relax first before writing the post
as it stands I am by no means knocking the drills...just about any gains I have made over the last couple of years have been due to this site and I am thankful for that

my frustration comes from the fact that I do believe that I am athletic and coordinated and that I should have the ability to learn and improve and I don't want to be stuck at 300-330
I WANT to be able to throw 400 on a flat line
I should be able to achieve that

I realize that this does not happen over night
I also realize that it will take some work and I need to get into the field and practice more
I will endeavor to do that

I'll ask some questions to see if I can get myself on a better track
Image

on this picture is the hammer pound in frame 3 or 4?
is frame 3 the "right pec drill" so to speak?

I think/feel like I am trying to do it somewhere between 2 and 3 and that does not feel like it has any power

also the "pull" or when I am to pull on the disc (which I assume should close my wrist on the BH) should the disc already be in front of me and my shoulders already opening

should my grip on the disc be very loose all the way through frames 1 through 3 and only bear down after my shoulders have opened towards the target?

I also need to clarify some things on upper body positioning
I mentioned that I had OAT
I am pretty sure of this on the basis that I think my upper body is in the wrong position such that when I follow through my right shoulder drops below my left resulting in a tug down
my follow through arm seems to carry a downward arc (my hand ends below shoulder height ...should it be above?)

is this weight forward issue something where I need to be bending my upper body "over" so that I am almost leaning forward?


when I do the drills I think I can feel the weight of the disc moving
I am pretty sure though that I can't feel any nudge

it might help to get some video up
I will see if I can convince my wife to take a few vids for me
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Dr. Burd » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:10 am

I'll send a PM regarding a few of those things and help as best I can.

As for the other questions relating to the hammer pound - I'm pretty sure the hammer pound is happening at more like "Frame 3.5 or 3.75".

Frame 3 is basically the right pec drill and the position you will begin REALLY pulling from.
Frame 4 as drawn is a millisecond before the pivot completes and the disc rips out of your hand.

What happens immediately before Frame 4 is what the super sekret teqniks are all about. Your acceleration from the right pec will cause the wrist to coil and then at least hit neutral - then the pivot around your index/thumb.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:22 pm

no worries manU. gotta remember that i get frustrated when i can't get someone to learn :P it makes me feel like the shiz i come up with isn't good enough. it's one thing when i know something is overly-complicated, it's another thing when i feel like people are just looking at things from the wrong point of view.

Dr Burd is pretty much right on. the hammer pound should start somewhere between frame 2.5 and frame 3 and the actual pound part of it happens at like 3.5-3.75 when the shoulders are still parallel to the target.

the "nudge" happens at 4. the nudge is a very subtle feel and probably not worth working on until you can get the other parts of it down.

you have to keep in mind that until recently, people didn't throw 400' on a flat line. the ones that did, were "big arms." "plateau distance" was like 360' w/ a valk or teebird, 380' with an SL, flash, or orc if you turned em over, and 400' with a wraith only if you turned it over.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:18 pm

Blake_T wrote:the questions that both of you are asking are making it clear to me that you are off the correct path in both body and mind. it's not just a failure of the body to execute the motion, if you don't notice the physical cues associated with a success or failure, it is also a problem in the mind. also, it's a problem in the mind if you can't shed preconceived notions of the motion to just rely on your senses to feel it.


^^^ This is very much the truth.

My point with needing a coach with trying to help work out the shades of gray was about trying to be more efficient in the trial and error process. But your points are all very well taken.

I am actually not frustrated at all, but I do really feel ManU's frustration. I was frustrated when I couldn't get past the 275' Barrier. Now I can throw 325' on demand with pretty much any driver that I can turn over a bit. That is enough distance to be competitive in local doubles and I am happy enough with that. Now I want to work on accuracy. And this really needs a consistent release point which I expect will be greatly improved if I can add any snap at all. Which is why I am excited about pounding the hammer. But like I said, I am pretty content (for now) with my current level of play and want to improve lots of small things: not grip locking on smaller rims, consistency, putting, getting out of trouble, etc. So I am happy to work slowly on these drills and learn from the questions of others.


I've been doing drill 6 a bunch in my home and haven't had the chance to try actually throwing for a few days, but I can tell you that I think I am feeling it with drill 6 and I get WAY more speed at the end of drill 6 (backhand downward) than drill 3 (OH downward).


I do have a quick question relating from going from drills 4 or 5 to an actual throw. When I do these drills, I can still hold on no matter how hard I pound the hammer. This may be a subconscious thing since I am often doing them inside and don't want to put a disc through my wall. But if I want to go from these drills to building up an actual throw in the field, shouldn't I be able to do them hard enough that the disc rips out of my hand. Do I need a bit of reach back to do this or should I just be using a looser grip?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby garublador » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:50 am

I understand this is a frustrating thing to hear for someone who's not getting it, but I think many people make these drills a lot more complicated than they need to be. Forget about throwing a disc. Forget about a reach back, forget about the x-step, forget about timing, forget about mechanics. Then do the drills. Don't try to apply them to anything, just do them so you get the feel of the weight of the disc pivoting about a point, aka the "hammer pound." Once you get that feel in one drill, move to the next. After the first time this will happen really quickly if your focus is right. The way the drills build one one another your throw will build itself, you won't need to apply the drills to anything. The only thing you should be worrying about or focusing on is the "hammer pound". Backhand you want the hammer pound to happen at 10:30-11 o'clock. All you should try to do is pound the hammer at that point. If you do that all of the other stuff will fall into place. Focusing on the other stuff will just make getting the hammer pound more difficult so don't do it.
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